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Stalled Saison

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Wolfman

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I have a problem.

I have a Saison fermenting, it was dumped on top of a Saison yeast cake. It started OK now it has stalled. It has been fermenting at 33c.

OG was 1.056 on the 28/05/12

Current is 1.036. I have stired the yeast cake up. No signs of life.

Now as I don't have another 3724 ready to pitch, what if I throw some 1056 that I washed up and drop the temp back to say 16c?
It's the only yeast I have ready to go ATM.

What's your thoughts?
 

pk.sax

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Chill out, leave it alone or at best put a heat belt on to compensate for the cold weather.
 

Wolfman

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Yer mate.

It's under full temp control ie. heat belt in my fermenting freezer.

All my other Saisons ferment out within a couple of weeks. All but this one.
 

pk.sax

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It could be your best one yet :)
Just let it be for a few days. It might take a couple more weeks but when it goes again it's going to dry right out.
 

Toper

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It hasn't stalled,just slowed down to bugger all,it's a trait of the 3724.Either be prepared to wait 6-9 weeks to get to a decent FG,or pitch a neutral yeast starter ie:1056 american ale or the dry equivalent .Do a search ,this has been commented on a few times in threads :)
 

Wolfman

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Ok. It was fermenting at 34 have up't to 36. See how that goes I surpose.
 

Nick JD

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Apparently it's got something to do with pH being low and how the stalling thing is like this as it's related to champange yeast and stuff, but I can't remember exactly.

I never had any Belgian Saisons stall (all fermented out pretty quick in the mid 30s) - but figure that if you're finishing it off with a yeast at attenuates to 1.010, when the saison yeast will eventually got to 1.002 ... I wouldn't bottle it and store it warm; it's not "finished".
 

rich.angus@hotmail.com

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As everyone has said. Just leave it. I have had them take 7 weeks at 32 C to get to 1004. I have also done the pitching a neutral yeast at 4 weeks and have found that it is not nearly as nice and complex with the ones I have just left.

Nick - were the ones you did a little lower in gravity - less than 1050? I have heard that above approx 1050 the pH thing comes into play and the yeast tends to take a holiday.
 

Nick JD

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As everyone has said. Just leave it. I have had them take 7 weeks at 32 C to get to 1004. I have also done the pitching a neutral yeast at 4 weeks and have found that it is not nearly as nice and complex with the ones I have just left.

Nick - were the ones you did a little lower in gravity - less than 1050? I have heard that above approx 1050 the pH thing comes into play and the yeast tends to take a holiday.
All the Saisons I've done (belgian) have been 1.060, at most. My best ones are the mild "farmhouse" ones around 4% (I think it was Tony who got me onto mild summer saisons). You're right about the high gravity saisons stalling I reckon, and it might be that the same affect is happening on other yeasts when it's a big beer but people think it's an alcohol thing, not a acid thing. I recall now that it was a Jamil podcast where he said the pH thing is a yeast staller ... yet I still see recipes with acidulated malts.
 

Nick JD

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Nick, do you add any calcium salts to your brewing water for saisons?
I'm not the one to ask about salt additions - don't know the first thing about it (but probably should learn). Someone well-versed in it will chime in I'm sure.

I'd like to know how Ca ions lower the pH... OT, but I really need to know my water chem here (GC) before I can delve into that stuff.
 

manticle

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Calcium drops pH of the mash but that's usually desired as mash pH of pale base grain in distilled water is higher than optimal.

You would only add calcium salts if your water were deficient in calcium (which my tap water is). Appropriate calcium is important for healthy yeast function as well as enzymatic function during the mash.
 

pk.sax

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Yes, while I agree with you that where I've done the right salt additions (I dot know much about them either, go with general recommendations and known water profile) it has improved mash efficiency, sparged better too - 'normal' yeast seem to love it, but this saison yeast seems to be a different creature! It migh be worth investigating the traditional water profiles of the area where saisons were brewed, especially higher gravity and also, what those brewers did to make it work.

There are a few imported high gravity saisons on the market today, not that I get any up here! My hunch is that they do something other than CaCl2 additions to get the same mash results. Mash ph is only one of several factors that affect extraction after all. Or maybe there is some addition to the kettle to precipitate out excess calcium?!? Just throwing out there the angle I'm looking at it from. Will have to look at it.
Although, I'm sure the professional/semi-pro brewers on here would know what the trick is.
 

manticle

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I think reported historical water profiles is the worst way to approach water chemistry but we are getting a fair bit off topic.

I can't imagine that Wolfman, being on the same water supply I am (which is calcium deficient in regards to brewing) would be needing to drop out excess calcium to make this yeast work (particularly when he has made it work successfully before).

Possibly, being re-used yeast it is more inclined to exhibit the trait it is fairly famous for - slowing right down at the 1030 mark.

Anyway still interested to hear if your hypothesis bears any weight (genuinely interested).
 

pk.sax

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I'm thinking a tiny all pils malt batch, just need to find enough glass/clear plastic bottles to be able to monitor it.
Brew in a saucepan it will be.
 

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