Stainless Conical Fermentors

[punkin]

As with the Rims, i am looking into the idea of stocking stainless conicals. I know nothing about them though so would be interested in requirements.

This is your chance to build the perfect unit. Design it as if you were building it yourself. B)

Things i would need to know are;

Size, not just capacity, but what shape, diameter and height do you think would be most universal?

Fittings, how many and where? Assume that all fittings will be triclover for easy removal and sealing, what do you need fittings for, where would they be and what size?

Lid, what thickness? How should it seal? Should there be fittings for a blow off etc?

All ideas needed. Please keep the thread respectful as not everyone will have the exact same requirements.

 

[wakkatoo]

First of all.....subscribed.

Will have to measure my fridge for dimensions and think about the other bits...

 

[punkin]

Another thought is would you like them to be externally powered? A recirculating coil or jacket to maintain temp? With a controller so you can 'think outside the white enamel square' as far as size goes?

 

[vortex]

Some of my guidelines:
Fit in a fridge.
Legs handle one short leg at the rear to sit on the compressor hump (could be an issue due to different sizes of compressor humps)
Completely welded interior (more expensive, but done right is good. Doing it right at the price point will be the issue!)
Correct cone angle (60 degrees IIRC?)
Polished interior.
2" dump valve at least with tri-clover.
Might be possible to have a lower half which is a standard height, then attachable upper halves to increase volume without having to buy a whole new conical.

Most of this has already been done on the MoreBeer and Blichmann conicals. Blichmann are all weldless fittings which a lot of people won't like (I don't want them if spending $1400 on a conical), MoreBeer would just be too expensive to ship for just one.

 

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

Legs handle one short leg at the rear to sit on the compressor hump (could be an issue due to different sizes of compressor humps)

That shorter (back) leg would be better off adjustable to suit all the different brands of fridge.

 

[altstart]

That shorter (back) leg would be better off adjustable to suit all the different brands of fridge.

I had a S/S conical made locally with a telescopic back leg that is adjustable to any size hump in any fridge. I brew 100 litre batches and the back leg works perfectly. Being fully adjustable if my fermenting fridge dies on me it is not a major hassle to lay my hands on a replacement.
Cheers Altstart

 

[cam89brewer]

Another thought is would you like them to be externally powered? A recirculating coil or jacket to maintain temp? With a controller so you can 'think outside the white enamel square' as far as size goes?

If I was going to spend the extra cash on one of these in which I have considered before, I would be aiming for a reasonably large size maybe at least 50 - 60L - Ideally 80 - 100L and I think that having a custom heating jacket or a recirculating coil would be very advantageous. The only query I would have is whether or not it would use a lot more power than the traditional fridge/freezer with an stc-1000 as it wont be insulated as well?

 

[brad81]

A powered heatpad jacket would be good coupled with a thermowell and stc. This would suit if you are brewing ales, I'm guessing it would also assist if your lagering fridge gets too cold on a freezing night too.

 

[Adam Howard]

If you make one a lot like this, so that it is compatible with this. You'd be on to a winner.

 

[vortex]

If you make one a lot like this, so that it is compatible with this. You'd be on to a winner.

+1. Pretty much everything required, right there. Heating/Cooling can be an addon.

 

[cam89brewer]

If you make one a lot like this, so that it is compatible with this. You'd be on to a winner.

+2 I agree, this would be ideal and I have never seen these yeast harvesters before they look very handy and would save a lot of stuffing around.

 

[MaestroMatt]

If I were to break it down as to WHY I would want a conical it would be ONLY for the ease of harvesting yeast and for ease of cleaning.

Don't worry about temp control ability - not needed.

Don't worry about fancy stands - just 3 solid legs (I do like the adjustable legs idea)

I wouldn't even worry about a domed top....just flat SS cover with some sort of clamping to keep it down.

Two ports (whatever fittings are the most desirable - triclover or just welded threaded fittings) - 1 for sampling and other for harvesting.

I personally like the idea of a single batch vessel (30L) as I don't brew doubles but would happily purchase a 50L if it was the only one going and it was of reasonable price - always easy to ferment 20L in a 50L vessel


So I suppose those I my own personal thoughts......subscribed to the idea in anycase!

 

[Nibbo]

I'm the same as Maestro...Less is more. I'd like a plain fermenter i could engineer additions later on when needed. Having the basics to start with would mean the price would be open to more people i'd assume...size wise, i'd be looking at something around the 100ltr mark. If i'm going to get a bling fermentor, it'd want it to cater for larger batches. Though smaller size would be easier to control temp as a 100ltr fermentor might struggle to squeeze in the fridge.

Just my own thoughts

 

[Airgead]

I've been looking at conicals recently as I'm sick of trying to keep plastic fermenters clean (and I'm terrified of glass ones after a small 5l one suffered a blocked airlock and went foom on me a few years ago).

Feature wise, the main thing I would be after is affordability. I know that's hard with conicals but something that doesn't cost a few grand would be nice. B3 and Blichman make some very nice ones but to get one out here costs a fortune.

A very basic 30l conical would do me. Other than that, features that would be nice are a lid that will take pressure so I can transfer with co2. I like the idea of weldless fittings for cleaning but have no strong feelings either way. Wheels might be nice as they do get heavy. Racking arm on the side so I can draw off clear beer above the yeast. Dump valve in the bottom. Basic stuff.

Cleanability and affordability are my main criteria.

I'll take two thanks.

Cheers
Dave

 

[choppadoo]

This would be my ideal conical;
- 50-60L
- Basic design with options to add/mod for things like heating/cooling jackets, yeast harvester, rotating racking valve, etc. This would hopefully keep entry cost/price down a bit.
- Threaded fittings. I don't use tri-clover anywhere else in my brewery so I would prefer not to introduce a new type of (expensive) fitting where existing fittings are more than sufficient.
- Simple lid attachment for ease of cleaning. The lids on variable capacity wine tanks are quite nifty (Variable Capacity Wine Tanks). These would allow for different ferment volumes without too much headspace, and also eliminate ullage on beers being aged/lagered. I'm pretty sure you can buy the lids seperately- the 100L tank has a diameter of 400mm- could be a good option.
- Stand which doesn't stick out too much, so it can fit more easily into fridges.
- Adjustable height leg/s would be nice.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with, as I have been looking for the "perfect" conical for some time!

Cheers

 

[drsmurto]

This would be my ideal conical;
- 50-60L
- Basic design with options to add/mod for things like heating/cooling jackets, yeast harvester, rotating racking valve, etc. This would hopefully keep entry cost/price down a bit.
- Threaded fittings. I don't use tri-clover anywhere else in my brewery so I would prefer not to introduce a new type of (expensive) fitting where existing fittings are more than sufficient.
- Simple lid attachment for ease of cleaning. The lids on variable capacity wine tanks are quite nifty (Variable Capacity Wine Tanks). These would allow for different ferment volumes without too much headspace, and also eliminate ullage on beers being aged/lagered. I'm pretty sure you can buy the lids seperately- the 100L tank has a diameter of 400mm- could be a good option.
- Stand which doesn't stick out too much, so it can fit more easily into fridges.
- Adjustable height leg/s would be nice.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with, as I have been looking for the "perfect" conical for some time!

Cheers

Agree. A base model with simple fittings and the option of adding on extras. Love the idea of the variable capacity, works well in the wibe industry.

If you specialise too much you decrease the number you will sell.

 

[mikk]

If you make one a lot like this, so that it is compatible with this. You'd be on to a winner.

+3. no need to try to come up with all new features to suit every possible situation, just something the same as this but with temp control options/fridge 'insertability'.

 

[mckenry]

What I would like (sorry if its already been suggested) is some sort of 'one way' method of adding things post primary ferment.

If I want to add dry hops or gelatin or more sugar etc after the initial sealing of the fermenter, I'd like to be able to do it without removing the lid.

Maybe some kind of reservior inside that can release a trap door?
Maybe some kind of pocket that I can fill from the outside, seal, purge with CO2, then drop the contents into the wort?
Maybe some way of rousing yeast after a day or two for those heavy floccers that need a good spanking, again without opening the lid?

Just trying to think of ways to minimise exposure to air and still do all those extra jobs I like to do from time to time.

 

[vortex]

What I would like (sorry if its already been suggested) is some sort of 'one way' method of adding things post primary ferment.

If I want to add dry hops or gelatin or more sugar etc after the initial sealing of the fermenter, I'd like to be able to do it without removing the lid.

Maybe some kind of reservior inside that can release a trap door?
Maybe some kind of pocket that I can fill from the outside, seal, purge with CO2, then drop the contents into the wort?

I like these ideas. Probably one for the 'add-ons' though

Maybe some way of rousing yeast after a day or two for those heavy floccers that need a good spanking, again without opening the lid?

Fitting your CO2 to the bottom valve and bubbling CO2 into the conical will do this. So, maybe a special fitting with a corney-keg type ball lock would make this simpler perhaps. This could even be adapted to do some of the liquid additions from above. Not so much the hops, though

 

[Logman]

Just a thought but is there any reason the main 'top' area has to be round? Could it be a square with a cone on the bottom? The main problem with ferment fridges is that half the internal area is wasted. I'd have to think a square vessel is going to get into a lot more fridges and not have to stand as tall - therefore a 50 litre is going to suit far more people.

I guess 4 legs, two adjustable at the rear...

 

[punkin]

Some good ideas here people, keep them coming.

Stilldragons mission is the highest possible quality at the lowest possible price, so if it's possible to make these things (and get them here) at an affordable price then that's what we'd do.

Rest assured, it will come with triclover fittings. These are bestest, most versatile fitting out there. they are much more affordable than you think if you source them from the right place (me ) and it would be a very simple matter (they are already a part we stock) to use a 2" triclover with a 1" thread so those who'd like to use threaded fittings can have the best of both worlds.
Ease of accesibilty and cleaning, plus a threaded valve or whatever other fitting you'd like to screw in. Then it's a simple matter for those who want to purchase the fancy yeast harvester from elsewhere to just clip it on.


One thing i won't be doing is copying an existing design. I want to know the features that are best (as in the adjustable legs) and the sizes you want and go from there. if we can do two sizes that will nest for shipping, then so much the better.
I want it to be the 'aussiehomebrewer conical' not the Blichman knockoff.

 

[kevin_smevin]

I love the Blichmann conicals http://www.blichmannengineering.com/fermentor/fermentor.html. The thing i don't like is the exposed nut at the bottom doesn't seem very sanitary. I think tri-clovers and sanitary welds are highly desirable - in the fermenter more than anywhere else in the brewhouse.

Needs to have:
- Ability to be pressurised and hold pressure - not for carbonation, just to keep it air out and be able to transfer under pressure using CO2
- thermowell into the middle of the fermenter for temperature probe. Can be as simple as this one http://www.beerbelly.com.au/ferment.html (at the bottom of the page) welded into the lid
- The Lid should have a smaller access point like the blichmann ones have (a corny keg lid) for adding dry hops, wood chips, finings etc.
- Blow off tube that can also be used to pressurise the fermenter for transfer. A tri-clover fitting like this http://www.brewershardware.com/1.5-Tri-Clo...2-Male-NPT.html and one of these https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3910 would work a treat.
- Needs to have enough clearance below the conical to fit one of these https://morebeer.com/view_product/11074//Ul...Yeast_Harvester or something similar
- rotating racking arm
- adjustable height legs
- handles for carrying
- Size - ideally i would love something that i can ferment 60L in, so a 70-80L capacity would be ideal.

That's all for now

 

[Thirsty Boy]

affordability.

Lets face it, most of us use something thats pretty close to a stock standard coops plastic fermenter, and make it work really well. So do we really need all that much more?? I say not.

As per MM and Airgeed, but maybe even further down that track - less is more.

I want from a conical, that it be stainless for sanitation and ease of cleaning, and that it have a proper cone, aside from that, it really doesn't need to be anything much more than a coppers fermenter.

Racking port.... nah, dont need one. Why? Dump out yeast like you're supposed to in a conical and take the yeast from the bottom valve.
Sturdy thick stainless .... nah, dont need it. Thin gague like an asian shop stock pot is fine, better even because it makes it light and easy to move.
Lid..... I'm happy with glad wrap and a rubber band now, why wouldn't i be in the future? Either a minimal lid or no lid at all
Fittings... triclover? no way, why? Just an inch of thread so I can whack on whatever valve I want. Its approximately 3.7% more difficult to screw/unscrew a threaded fitting as it is to attach and detach a damn triclover anyway, might as well have the cheaper option and make a tiny bit more effort to keep it clean... like we do now.
2inch dump port.... wtf?? how fast do you need the yeast to come out? there aren't 2inch dump ports on half the 1000L conicals you see in craft breweries. 1/2 inch would do if it came down to it, 3/4inch would be just fine and 1 inch probably a little more than you need and maybe too much.
Capacity - i think most people mostly make 20 odd litre batches, if you can make the conicals reasonably economical, then that would be your biggest market, maybe twice that as well.... I think people who want bigger than that, are probably going to want something more fully featured than what I'm talking about, but they would also be a pretty small market.
Legs - lightweight, and probably more like a stand than individual legs. If the whole unit is light weight enough, then it doesn,t have to be tall enough to rack out of into a keg, I can just pick it up and stick it on the bench like I do now. The legs/stand could be nice and short, then it would still fit on the fridge shelf and not have to go on the floor. Then compressor hump wont come into play and i wont have to change the configuration of my fermenting fridge.

Oh - and here's a left of field one for you. Why the hell do they have to be round? why not pyramidicals? A unit that was square instead or round, would fit into a fridge more neatly and have to be less tall/wide for the same volume. Yeah yeah, i know you never see a commercial example of a square "conical" but thats because they're big; and round vessels are stronger and also more easily cleaned by CIP. But a home fermenter could be square and still made of very light material, plus we tend to clean our fermenters with a scrubbing brush rather than a spray ball, so a square one would be just as good as a round one. If it would (and i have no idea if it actually would) make it easier and cheaper to fabricate, I'd have pyramidicals any old day. I might even actually prefer it to conicals just because of the way they'd fit into the fridge better.

Minimalist, small, lightweight. There is no way I'm paying $800 for a conical no matter what features it hasl, hell, I'm not even paying $500 if you can somehow manage to make them for two thirds of what evereyone else can.... but I'd happily part with a couple of hundred bucks for a minimalist unit that would after all, still have all the features that are actually important in a conical.

TB

 

[mfeighan]

Oh - and here's a left of field one for you. Why the hell do they have to be round? why not pyramidicals? A unit that was square instead or round, would fit into a fridge more neatly and have to be less tall/wide for the same volume. Yeah yeah, i know you never see a commercial example of a square "conical" but thats because they're big; and round vessels are stronger and also more easily cleaned by CIP. But a home fermenter could be square and still made of very light material, plus we tend to clean our fermenters with a scrubbing brush rather than a spray ball, so a square one would be just as good as a round one. If it would (and i have no idea if it actually would) make it easier and cheaper to fabricate, I'd have pyramidicals any old day. I might even actually prfer it to conicals just because of the way they'd fit into the fridge better.

i agree with the square option as long as the edges are curved and not sharp i can see it being a pita to clean if the edges are a flush square.

personally i would prefer a 50L one as i haven't done a single batch for like 2 yrs

 

[Yorg]

I have a Blichmann and a no-name.
I have considered getting rid of both - principally because of the narrow dumps- I poke clothes hanger wire into them to get the plug to flow.
So, two bobs, definitely a large dump, but an inch would be more than enough, and 3/4 I think would work well and would have a shorter L so that it would fit into more fridges.

 

[troopa]

It has to be capable of safely holding 200-300kpa and maybe as high as 500kpa if im stupid enough to force carb the fermenter(And yes there are idiots out there). Thats if its going to be a pressure vessel made out of steel for me (and to be safe as a pressure vessel) and im guessing this is the reason why most are cylindrical in shape with a domed lid and thicker then most Chinese stainless stockpot and more then most of us are going to spend

Maybe if you market it as a fermenter with a conical yeast capture with safety blow-off that is safe to what ever material thickness you choose(just like the plastic bucket conicals that's are on the forums atm) Then i agree with TB and id go with cuboid with flat top as its better for any area just and not the fridge

KISS... Thermowell, Single outlet, Adjustable pressure relief, and maybe an adjustable third leg(wish i had one). We can add heating and cooling or you can sell them as add ons

Tom

 

[raven19]

Punkin - can you flare the vertical sides' slightly' so the same sized vessel can be stacked one inside another and another etc? (this would also be fitting dependant of course)

Would reduce shipping big time.

I think if you can get a good price on these you will no doubt be on a winner.

I would have thought a 25 - 30L ish version and a bigger double batch version would be your market.

 

[roller997]

Here are some design aspects I like about my conical fermenter:
1. Not too tall so it could fit inside a fridge
2. Racking arm can be rotated when you loosen the clamp so you can set where it collects the beer from.
3. Triclover fittings for the racking arm and the dumping outlet
4. Very clean welds which are easily cleaned
5. It has handles on the side so you can lift it - With 46 liters it is a bit too heavy

Here are aspects I would like to see improved
1. Can not be pressurized.
2. No Thermowell
3. No ability to easily cool or warm the fermenter easily - I think this would make it into a premium product when coupled with some sort of glycol or heat pump. Alternatively Peltier cooling might be an option.
4. The racking arm sits inside a stainless tube like cavity which could hold sanitizing solution if you don't tip the fermenter a bit to empty that space.
5. The dumping outlet has a 90 degree bend - While it is only 1/2" in thickness, it would be fine if the yeast, trub and hops didn't have to squeeze around a 90 degree bend. Slightly larger 3/4" or maximum 1" would make it easier to dump waste.
6. The dumping outlet sits in the middle and has 8-10mm of straight stainless around (think of a pipe with a washer around it). This means that yeast and other waste can sit on there and you can't get rid of it.
7. Size - I wouldn't mind something a bit bigger to provide head space for the fermentation. With some of the stouts, the yeast comes out quite a bit over the top of the fermenter.

I assume one of the challenges is balancing if you will aim for a market that wants it at the lowest price in which case you should get quite a few takers or if you want to aim at providing more features, enhancements and good quality at a similar price point to existing fermenters out there.

Cheers

Roller

 

[wessmith]

It has to be capable of safely holding 200-300kpa and maybe as high as 500kpa if im stupid enough to force carb the fermenter(And yes there are idiots out there).

And that is the very reason we have never (and will never) supply pressure vessels to the HB market. Bloody hell! 500 kPa. Most commercial vessels are only rated to a max of 100 to 200 kPa and then only after meeting stringent design reviews and having calibrated pressure relief valves.

Guys, you might want to take a look at this link - http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25048

Stick to post mix kegs for pressure vessels and forget about pressure fermenters.

Wes

 

[fraser_john]

I think if you search the forum, these questions have all been asked before. And when the quote of $700+++ comes back, the thread goes very quiet.