Spunding Valve

[Lionman]

I have done one lager and it tastes and smells like DMS (creamed corn). Not sure if this is related to my hot side process (to short a boil?), or cold side (pressure?) but its not particularly pleasant. I have tried CO2 scrubbing which helped a little.

Recipe was

5KG Pils
1KG Munich
20g Eldorado FWH
20g Eldorado 5mins
S189

6%
33IBU

I mashed at 64c for 60mins, boiled for 60mins.

Fermented for 3 weeks at 15c @20PSI. Kegged and stored in fridge for 3 weeks.

Would a 90 min biol have stopped this? If you look paste the DMS flavour and aroma there is a tasty beer hiding in there.

 

[mtb]

I have done one lager and it tastes and smells like DMS (creamed corn). Not sure if this is related to my hot side process (to short a boil?), or cold side (pressure?) but its not particularly pleasant. I have tried CO2 scrubbing which helped a little.

Recipe was

5KG Pils
1KG Munich
20g Eldorado FWH
20g Eldorado 5mins
S189

6%
33IBU

I mashed at 64c for 60mins, boiled for 60mins.

Fermented for 3 weeks at 15c @20PSI. Kegged and stored in fridge for 3 weeks.

Would a 90 min biol have stopped this? If you look paste the DMS flavour and aroma there is a tasty beer hiding in there.

I'd definitely try a 90min boil as your first step.

 

[Gloveski]

I'm after a little guidance from any of you guys that have a few pressure fermented Lagers under your belt. I'm currently fermenting at 12deg & have the spundy set to 12psi. According to my vol/Co2 chart, this is around 2.15vol/Co2. I am approaching a diacetyl rest & upping the temp to 18deg for that. According to my Co2 chart, if I set the spundy to 28psi at this time, I will end up with 2.46vol/Co2 which is around where I want to be. The question I have is how long to leave the temp at 18deg? I will then remove the valve, leaving the 28psi in there & drop the temp to 1deg for a 7 day cold crash. Remove & transfer under pressure to a receiving keg.
Cheers

I left mine for 2 days . But I'm gradually lowering temp to let clean up on the way down . More the fact I'm away for work and I am getting the wife to adjust for me . Following roughly @labels technique for lagers

 

[Lionman]

I'd definitely try a 90min boil as your first step.

Cheers, this is what I was thinking/hoping

I was concerned it might be the slightly elevated temps but that would more likely lead to esters (fruity) than DMS (Vegetably). I am 95% sure its the latter. I was hoping the pressure would help reduce ester production.

So with a longer boil, do people add water back to the wort post boil? If I boil for 90misn I don't think I'll hit my volumes.

 

[mtb]

Cheers, this is what I was thinking/hoping

I was concerned it might be the slightly elevated temps but that would more likely lead to esters (fruity) than DMS (Vegetably). I am 95% sure its the latter. I was hoping the pressure would help reduce ester production.

So with a longer boil, do people add water back to the wort post boil? If I boil for 90misn I don't think I'll hit my volumes.

I use Beersmith and it adjusts volumes automatically if I up the boil length, your tool may do the same

 

[Lionman]

I use Beersmith and it adjusts volumes automatically if I up the boil length, your tool may do the same

It can but I'm limited buy what my kettle will hold and not boil over.

 

[Coldspace]

I'm after a little guidance from any of you guys that have a few pressure fermented Lagers under your belt. I'm currently fermenting at 12deg & have the spundy set to 12psi. According to my vol/Co2 chart, this is around 2.15vol/Co2. I am approaching a diacetyl rest & upping the temp to 18deg for that. According to my Co2 chart, if I set the spundy to 28psi at this time, I will end up with 2.46vol/Co2 which is around where I want to be. The question I have is how long to leave the temp at 18deg? I will then remove the valve, leaving the 28psi in there & drop the temp to 1deg for a 7 day cold crash. Remove & transfer under pressure to a receiving keg.
Cheers

Hey mate,
Did a heap of lagers last summer, bleed off pressure set to approx 12 - 15 psi at 12 - 13 degrees primary lager ferment. Usually after 5 days of active ferment, I purge a small sample with my pluto gun into jug, degas and allow to warm to room temp, take grav reading and usually down to about 1015 or just unde, I then wack my spunding valve off, crank temp to 19 and allow it to creep up over a couple days to finish off as well as the pressure to rise , when at about 26 psi which I find is plenty of carb for my lagers , I bleed off using the relief valve to 23-24 psi and leave it rise up to 26 , do this once a day for next couple of days till it sits at 26 steady, usually about day 10 - 12 now, I then pressure inject finnings or now biofine, then cc straight down and leave for at least one week. Perfect lagers, I usually sample a schooner each night during the week as I can't help myself, and generally pressure transfer over 1 to 2 weeks later into cornies for my keezer.

Others prob have diff ways, but I've done lagers all last summer and this works great for me.

Cheers

 

[Crusty]

Exactly the type of info I'm after. I'm also looking at the d-rest when around 1.015 so that's when I'll be cranking up the temp & winding up the pressure on the spundy. At 18deg & 28psi, I should get around 2.5vol/Co2 which suits me just fine. I'll leave it at 28psi for a couple of days then cap the fermenter. Cold crash for 7 days then transfer to a serving keg.
One differential I can't seem to find an answer to is differing pressures everyone's using to primary ferment. Some set the pressure at 5psi, others 8 or 10, me 12 & some 15. I'm not sure what effects this will have on the finished beer but everyone seems to come to the same conclusion with a far superior beer than fermenting the traditional way. I'm really excited about the control you have over your carbonation & a naturally carbed beer is really nice with those tiny effervescent bubbles.
I'm approaching 10yrs of All Grain Brewing & you never stop learning in this hobby. There's always something new to try & something else to buy on our never ending quest for the perfect beer.
I might drop it back to 26psi as per coldspaces recommendation.

 

[Stubbie]

In order to get some 'bang for buck', my normal approach to brewing lagers is to throw a second batch onto the yeast cake. I'm reasonably sure it won't be an issue, but figure I may as well ask the question; does pressure fermenting adversely affect a lager yeast cake and the quality of a subsequent lager fermented thereon?

Cheers

 

[Mardoo]

The research I've seen indicates that yeast health begins to decline up around 30 psi. I don't think you'd see a noticeable effect below that, and if you're only doing those pressures for the D rest, still don't think you'd see any noticeable effect.

 

[Stubbie]

Thanks Mardoo

Am certainly keen to try my hand at pressure fermenting and am in the process of acquiring the various bits and bobs, in no small thanks to the contributors of this thread.

FWIW I have brewed 4 to 6 lagers per year over the past 10 years and by pitching at 7C and fermenting at 10C to 11C there's never been a need for a D rest. So I don't expect to start now.

The research I've seen indicates that yeast health begins to decline up around 30 psi. I don't think you'd see a noticeable effect below that, and if you're only doing those pressures for the D rest, still don't think you'd

 

[Stubbie]

Thanks Mardoo

I'm certainly keen to try my hand at pressure fermenting and am in the process of acquiring the various bits and bobs, in no small thanks to the contributors to this thread.

I have always pitched my lagers at 7C and controlled a slow rise to 10C - 11C. Never had a need for a D rest and don't expect a need in the future.

 

[pcqypcqy]

It's a funny thing this pressure fermenting. It seems the benefits, particularly for lagers, can kick in as soon as you apply any pressure at all. As Crusty noted, the range of values people have used here is from 5 to 15psi for the primary ferment. Some people in my club even go higher pressure and temperature and turn it around in a week without any ill effects.

Given the fiddly adjustment of spunding valves, and double batch sizes, I haven't had a great deal of repeatability to be able to say for sure one way or the other.

 

[Coldspace]

I run 3 kegmenters and due to the slight inaccuracies of the keg king valves I am happy at any where between 10 and 15 psi, all though this can be at 15 psi first few days when real active ferments are going then drops down to 10 in the last couple of days before pressure rise.

This would be also due to the fact of a higher gas load pressure which then tappers off. A better quality valve would help me but ATM I've got it under control.

I have noticed no diff with side by side tests on same lagers in the 10 - 15 psi range with 20 or so batches done last summer.

Also, I did find with a 28 psi finish at 19 degrees, my beers wer too carbonated, I find 26 is max perfect for my lagers and 22-23 for ales and 19 for stouts irish reds.

I do what danscraftbeer does as well, I pitch and oxygen in the middle of the temp range for yeast, the slight increase inside the ferment would still keep my temps under the higher recommended end due to the fact I'm not running a thermowell and just keep the temp probe taped to side of the kegmenter under thick insulation.

I have found my lagers, ales all have been brilliant compared to my old stainless ambient pressure ferments.

The smaller natural carb bubbles allow the flavours of malts and hops to really shine through on the palet compared to the forced carb beers, even forced carb beers took weeks to settle the carbonic acid from the process where natural is so much better.

Plus it's a fun way of doing things. It was the missing link that brought my great beers up to , yep, that's better.

It's way easier to run slightly lower finishing pressure than u wish for , transfer and put onto taps, if still slightly less than desired you will find that after 24 hrs at pouring pressure all will be great.
Easier to add 5% more co2 than take out. I found at 28 psi beers were too foamy, but then again the keg king reg may be slightly inaccurate .
Few batches and you will have your system dialed in.

Reminds me, time for lager season...

 

[Yuz]

Just researching on the topic I came across this info (I'm sure most of you would be aware anyway, so this is noob material):

Further details here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers#The_3_phases_of_a_lager_fermentation

 

[Gloveski]

In order to get some 'bang for buck', my normal approach to brewing lagers is to throw a second batch onto the yeast cake. I'm reasonably sure it won't be an issue, but figure I may as well ask the question; does pressure fermenting adversely affect a lager yeast cake and the quality of a subsequent lager fermented thereon?

Cheers

I'm on my first batch lagering ATM but most have reported that the second batch on the yeast cake turned out better

 

[Coldspace]

Also highly recommend biofine, I've used it on past 4 batches and it easy, I mix 30 mls for 45 ltr batch into 200 mls of clean water , put into 1.25 ltr soft drink bottle pressure up with carb cap with hose on end, then click onto the kegmenter gas post and transfer in. Sometimes needs to be disconnected and extra charge added to the soft drink bottle to get the last in. Also slight tweak of the release valve in the kegmenter to drop it's pressure slightly help great.
Rock the keg alittle then cold crash . Works great

 

[mtb]

Also highly recommend biofine, I've used it on past 4 batches and it easy, I mix 30 mls for 45 ltr batch into 200 mls of clean water , put into 1.25 ltr soft drink bottle pressure up with carb cap with hose on end, then click onto the kegmenter gas post and transfer in. Sometimes needs to be disconnected and extra charge added to the soft drink bottle to get the last in. Also slight tweak of the release valve in the kegmenter to drop it's pressure slightly help great.
Rock the keg alittle then cold crash . Works great

That's a lot of effort compared to simply squirting into the top with the lid slightly open.. are you doing so to limit O2 ingress?

 

[Gloveski]

Also highly recommend biofine, I've used it on past 4 batches and it easy, I mix 30 mls for 45 ltr batch into 200 mls of clean water , put into 1.25 ltr soft drink bottle pressure up with carb cap with hose on end, then click onto the kegmenter gas post and transfer in. Sometimes needs to be disconnected and extra charge added to the soft drink bottle to get the last in. Also slight tweak of the release valve in the kegmenter to drop it's pressure slightly help great.
Rock the keg alittle then cold crash . Works great

Yeah love biofine I've just been putting straight into serving keg , used on the last 4 brews way easier than gelatine

 

[Crusty]

The same as Mardoo.
All the info I've dug up seems to suggest the same.

 

[Mardoo]

In terms of quality improvement, I can’t say I’ve noticed improved quality in lagers. It’s good to hear you have @Coldspace Hoppy or yeast-driven beers have benefitted from less oxygen ingress. I ferment them at lower pressure, about 5-8psi, so as not to suppress ester formation.

However, storage time has definitely improved across the board. I’m definitely seeing less degradation over time. Not that this is something we’re all looking for…

I haven’t yet tried fermenting lagers at higher temperature combined with high pressure.

 

[Coldspace]

That's a lot of effort compared to simply squirting into the top with the lid slightly open.. are you doing so to limit O2 ingress?

Not really much effort, fill, pressure up, click on and watch the biofine disappear into pressurised keg. Proballly easier than uncoupling the kegmenter after depressurisation and loosing nice headspace of co2, pouring in then coupling back up and repressure using gas bottle.

Might as well limit O2 ingress if going all out for pressure fermenting .

Biofine I find leaves more flavour in my beer than gelatine.

 

[mtb]

Not really much effort, fill, pressure up, click on and watch the biofine disappear into pressurised keg. Proballly easier than uncoupling the kegmenter after depressurisation and loosing nice headspace of co2, pouring in then coupling back up and repressure using gas bottle.

Might as well limit O2 ingress if going all out for pressure fermenting .

Biofine I find leaves more flavour in my beer than gelatine.

Yeah fair point. And I totally agree on that last point - I became a biofine convert last month. Kicks the ass out of gelatine

 

[Coldspace]

In terms of quality improvement, I can’t say I’ve noticed improved quality in lagers. It’s good to hear you have @Coldspace Hoppy or yeast-driven beers have benefitted from less oxygen ingress. I ferment them at lower pressure, about 5-8psi, so as not to suppress ester formation.

However, storage time has definitely improved across the board. I’m definitely seeing less degradation over time. Not that this is something we’re all looking for…

I haven’t yet tried fermenting lagers at higher temperature combined with high pressure.

I agree, quality not much better at the start, I do find the natural carb is softer on the palet so a better beer than forced carb , even slow force carb over several days is not as good . I used to alway natural carb up a few bottles in the old days per batch and keg the rest and other than alittle sediment I personally liked the bottle conditioned versions but now get the best of both worlds with the pressure fermented kegged beers.

I agree, my beers have remained fresher longer as well due to keeping the oxygen out.

I too haven't tried a higher temp ferment as I just find staying in the yeast range is still good. So I'll keep plodding along that way.

 

[Crusty]

I took a gravity reading yesterday & it was @1.029 from 1.045. Today's sample was @1.022, so it looks like I will be cranking up pressure tomorrow along with the temperature. I can't detect any sulfur smell from my hydrometer sample @12psi. The sample tasted fantastic with a little bit of carbonation & I don't see myself throwing out my hydro samples anymore. Quite refreshing & on it's way to being a very nice Lager even at this early stage.

 

[pcqypcqy]

I took a gravity reading yesterday & it was @1.029 from 1.045. Today's sample was @1.022, so it looks like I will be cranking up pressure tomorrow along with the temperature. I can't detect any sulfur smell from my hydrometer sample @12psi. The sample tasted fantastic with a little bit of carbonation & I don't see myself throwing out my hydro samples anymore. Quite refreshing & on it's way to being a very nice Lager even at this early stage.

Just watch the bubblies with the hydro samples. You want to de-gas it as much as possible to get the true measurement.

 

[Crusty]

Yeah will do. I let it sit to room temp before taking the reading

 

[Lionman]

anyone have a link to a gauge suitable for a spunding valve that goes to 30 PSI? Mine only goes to 15 which is annoying. Need to guesstimate above that but it also hits the end stop on the gauge well below 30 I think.

There are some on amazon, what is the thread size on the keg king PRV gauge?

 

[Coldspace]

anyone have a link to a gauge suitable for a spunding valve that goes to 30 PSI? Mine only goes to 15 which is annoying. Need to guesstimate above that but it also hits the end stop on the gauge well below 30 I think.

There are some on amazon, what is the thread size on the keg king PRV gauge?

You can buy a higher pressure gauge from kk for the kk spunding valve. Screws straight on.

 

[pcqypcqy]

You can buy a higher pressure gauge from kk for the kk spunding valve. Screws straight on.

Still annoys me that this gauge isn't standard. Can't be much of a cost difference.