Sour not Sour

[Lionman]

I dont have a lot of experience with sours. Ive tried a few commercial examples and most are not to my liking.

I tried Brett not Brett by Indian Ocean Brewing for GABBS and was well impressed though. To me it tasted like fruit yogurt beer and I would love to try and brew something similar to this. The creamy mouth feel, slight sourness and fruitiness from hops (i'm guessing) was a really pleasant but interesting drink.

How do I go about this?

I'm guessing the yogurtyness is from lactobacillus?

I'm thinking of brewing a nice IPA with a slightly higher FG and then using some lacto to sour it in a secondary ferment. Would this be workable?

Do I use a commercially available blend from White Labs or Wyeast or try culturing from yogurt or probiotics? Whats the best option?

Cheers

 

[earle]

As suggested by the name and confirmed by their website http://www.themarinamindarie.com/indian-ocean-brewery/ Brett not Brett is soured with brett which gives a different sourness to lacto.

To me lacto gives a very clean sourness/tartness but not really yogurty even though lacto is used in yogurt as well.

I've been doing a few kettle sours with lacto and the good thing is a much quicker turnaround time so you could assess then adjust your recipe if you went this way instead of souring in secondary. I use Ethical Nutrients IBS Support which is a pure strain of lactobacillus plantarum

 

[Lionman]

Thanks for the reply.

Your suggestion has lead me to conclude that the yeast they use is probably actually WLP644.

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp644-saccharomyces-bruxellensis-trois

Hence the name Brett NOT Brett. This strain was "Formerly named Brettanomyces bruxellensis Trois".

On the link you provided...

"Brett not Brett is a new world sour brewed in collaboration with The Dutch Trading Co. Showcasing a fascinating strain of yeast formally known as a Brettanomyces Bruxellensis – The goat of the yeast family. Brett will eat/ferment everything!"

So It looks like a beer fermented with a obscure Saccharomyces strain with Brettanomyces like qualities.

 

[GalBrew]

If you do a primary ferment of an IPA with WLP644 you will not get any sourness or funk of any kind. What you will get is a ton of tropical fruit esters which taste just great with hoppy beers that have a citrus/tropical fruit character.

I can't comment on how 644 behaves if used after the primary ferment is complete.

 

[Lionman]

I think the sourness from WLP644 may be quite subtle so if you do an IPA, it may get lost in the bitterness.

"Born is a beer bursting with tropical aromas, evoking recollections of sweet juicy stone fruit and tart pineapple. A smattering of new world hops meld into the beer like a jaunty frolicking goat in an all you can eat meadow."

To me this would mean a lightly hopped ale that lets the yeast shine through more. I'm thinking under 30IBU.

 

[captain crumpet]

The longer it ages, the weirder that strain tastes. Have done two ferments with it, personally was not a fan.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

Im not an expert at all - have exactly one sour under my belt.

I was told recently that Lacto doesnt like Hops - I cant recall if its the hop oils that stop the lacto working or the lacto that strips the hop flavours.

Either way if you are kettle souring I understand you want a fairly low IBU wort. You can add late hops for aroma/flavour late in the boil after youve finished souring

the sourness from the lacto tends to work in place of the bitterness - so you dont need a really bitter IPA style wort.

hope these ramblings are helpful

 

[Lionman]

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it. Its a whole new world, as if there want enough to get your head around with beer already.

 

[paulyman]

You won't get sourness from either sacc or Brett. Although Brett can produce very small amounts of acetic acid in the presence of oxygen, not enough to become noticeably sour though. If you want a clean yoghurt like mild sourness then a kettle sour prior to boiling and adding the hops will get you there. Keep an eye on the pH and when it gets you where you want it to be (somewhere in the 3.4 -3.6 should be about right) then boil as normal. Don't hop it prior to the boil as the lacto strains in those pills are extremely hop intolerant. If you use the IBS support pills then they are happy to work at ambient and keeping out oxygen isn't quite so critical.

 

[Lionman]

I might try 644 out just to see what its like.

I will definitely try a kettle sour too in the near future.

We have some of this at home already http://www.faulding.com.au/our-products/faulding-probiotics/probiotics

Each Capsule contains:
Lactobacillus Acidophilus (HOWARU® Dophilus) 6.25 billion CFU
Lactobacillus Casei (LPC-37) 6.25 billion CFU
Bifidobacterium Lactis (BI-04) 11.88 billion CFU
Bifidobacterium Bifidum 625 million CFU

Can I use those or are some of those strains no good for souring wort?

 

[GalBrew]

I might try 644 out just to see what its like.

I will definitely try a kettle sour too in the near future.

We have some of this at home already http://www.faulding.com.au/our-products/faulding-probiotics/probiotics

Each Capsule contains:
Lactobacillus Acidophilus (HOWARU[emoji768] Dophilus) 6.25 billion CFU
Lactobacillus Casei (LPC-37) 6.25 billion CFU
Bifidobacterium Lactis (BI-04) 11.88 billion CFU
Bifidobacterium Bifidum 625 million CFU

Can I use those or are some of those strains no good for souring wort?

Get the Ethical Nutirents IBS Support capsules. They have Lactobacillus Plantarum.

 

[huez]

I have tried the Ethical Nutrients in a berliner before. It did sour the beer quite well but it had this weird almost meaty flavour to it in the background. Once i noticed it, it was all i tasted.

It was weird, i wouldn't do it again.

 

[earle]

I have tried the Ethical Nutrients in a berliner before. It did sour the beer quite well but it had this weird almost meaty flavour to it in the background. Once i noticed it, it was all i tasted.

It was weird, i wouldn't do it again.

I've used the Ethical Nutrients in a few kettle soured berliner weisse and sour reds and haven't had this, each time a very clean sourness. Maybe caused by something else?

 

[Lionman]

Meaty flavour is possibly a smokiness caused by phenols from wild yeast.

 

[huez]

Definitely wasn't a smokiness, meaty might be the wrong description. It may well have been from something else but i've done sours since with commercial strains and i haven't experienced it again. I may give it another shot as lacto seems to be getting harder and harder to get from homebrew shops

 

[thumbsucker]

I am a sour nut currently have 8 sours ageing.

Sourness Acidic Acid (vinegar), Lactic Acid (yogurt), malic acid (granny smith apple/fruit) does not tend go well with bitterness on the pallet. If you are seeking a fruity hoppy beer using esters produced by Brett, then you should op for a 100% Brett fermentation. White Labs WLP645 Brettanomyces Claussenii is a popular choice.

However a touch of acid can bring a crispness to fruit flavours. That is why fruit is often blended with sour beers.

WLP645 Brettanomyces claussenii – Brilliantly fruity strain, although given enough time in a stronger beer it tends towards leather. This strain is a wonderful choice for primary fermentation of pale lower gravity worts, especially into the 80s°F (27-28°C) where the fruit character becomes peachy and tropical. White Lab’s Neva Parker noted that “B. claussenii is not a mixed-culture, despite what rumours have been out there.”

Just brew your standard IPA recipe, then pitch a massive starter, think lager pitching rate. Fermentation will take 4 to 6 weeks, when you reach a stable gravity, then dry hop and then keg it.

I have not had any off flavours using Ethical Nutrients.

Lacto is both alcohol and hops sensitive, once you get over 8 IBU lacto will die. That is why traditional lacto beers like Berliner Weisse or Gose have 4-8IBU and an ABV of under 4.5.

The primary reason we use hops is because malt is covered in lacto bacteria. Hops is is used to stop lacto in its tracts.

If you want lacto sour. The best fast approach is to kettle sour, mash, boil for 20 minutes to sterilise the wort, cool and pitch lacto and keep at 35ºc until you hit the right sourness for your pallet 24 to 120 hours. Then boil the wort 60 min and add your hops. This kettle sour method you can control the sourness and lock it in, otherwise sourness could keep evolving.

Also be aware that saccharomyces yeast does not like a PH under 3.5. Brett does better.

Also hops degrades quickly and ageing a sour beer takes time. When breweries want to make a hoppy beer they bitter the wart, age and when the beer is right then the do a huge dry hop to get a fresh hoppy profile.

I do a Lacto Sour Hefeweizen that I then inoculate with Wild Brett I captured from around my house and that I then age for six months before I dry hop with NZ riwaka. The heffe bring banana, the wild yeast has a pineapple tropical note and the riwaka brings in the passionfruit. Served highly carbonated with a low ABV great in summer.

 

[hirschb]

Thanks Thumbsucker for pointing out what needed to be said. A lot of people are totally confused about brett and sour beers. There are a few strains of brett that produce pronounced Lactic and/or acetic acid over time (Brett naardinensus from ECY comes to mind), but as TS stated, sourness typically comes from Lacto, Pedio, or other bacteria (like Pichia). Brett is used to add funky or fruity flavors. WL 644, is not brett, but produces some really nice citrus, pineapple, fruit aromas. I'm not sure where the "yogurtness" of the original beer came from.
Sour IPA's do exist. This is a really hard style to get right, as sourness and bitterness clash, and hops inhibit lacto and pedio. I've had a few that aren't bad, but this isn;t a style you want to play around with unless you already have a few kettle sours under your belt.
As always, if you're interested in sour beers, start here: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Main_Page
and then here:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/

 

[Lionman]

Thanks for the input guys, lots of great info.

White Labs do mention that WLP644 does provide a slight tartness, which I would take as being a reduced pH/slight acidity/slight sourness. Not sure if this would be enough to create a yogurtiness or not but it sounds like what I'm after after, a very mild acidity, not a full blown sour. Most sours I have tried I have not enjoyed. They are usually thin and unpleasantly strange tasting.

Perhaps the beer is a kettle sour thats later fermented with WLP644, they dont mention that though in any marketing I can find, they just mention its fermented with "a fascinating strain of yeast formally known as a Brettanomyces Bruxellensis"

 

[thumbsucker]

Lionman I would not depend on WLP644 to sour anything. You would have to wait well over a year to get even the smallest amount of tartness. If you are keen on doing sours I would read every page of http://www.themadfermentationist.com/ and read his book. Its the sour Bible.

Have you tried any Berliner Weisse? They have that yogurtiness you speak off. Boatrocker makes a few (MISS PINKY) and you can get them at Dan Murphies.

Your complaints about sours being thin aka dry on the palate is because Brett eats all sugar even starches and long chain maltose this means that sours can get as low as 10.00.
Also the unpleasantly strange tasting leather, wet dog, horse blanket & bandaid flavours. Again this is what some people love about sours.

I think that you are after is a zero Brett flavour sour beer. If you kettle sour and do a 100% brett ferment you will get that lacto yogurtiness and the fruitiness minus any funk off flavours that you do not like.

The general advice given to sour virgins is to brew a beer you are familiar with that you can use for your first sour, a 4.5 ABV Pale Ale with about 30 IBU's is a good choice for most people. The other nice starter sour base beer is a Witbier.

1. I would use a simple malt bill mostly pale ale malt. You can add a small 5 - 10% of Munich/dextrin malt (Complex food for Brett) and also a small amount of acidulated malt again 3 - 5% (Slight acidity is favourable for lacto to propagate).
2. Mash normally.
3. Drain to boil kettle, boil for 20 minutes.
4. Heat exchange & cool to 35ºc.
5. Pitch IBS Support lacto 5 tables for 25 litres.
6. Keep warm at 35ºc for 24 to 120 hours depending on your taste (Aim for less tartness).
7. Bring to boil for 60 minutes and use what ever hopping schedule you like.
8. Then pitch two packets of WLP644 OR WLP645 and do your primary ferment 4 - 6 weeks.
9. Then dry hop in secondary per taste.

This should give you a base line, you can then tweak the recipe as you go.

 

[Lionman]

Thanks mate, awesome post.

I think taking your advice would be a wise way to step into the sour beer game.