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Sodium Percarbonate

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DarrenTheDrunk

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Hell all. I am conflicted here. With the PBW and Sodium Percarbonate (SP), as they do the job by oxidizing. Does this mean that the kegs should be fill to the top to be effective. I would have thought so which means an awful lot of product will be required to clean say a 50 litre keg but if it is needed, then so be it. If anyone is interested, the link below is to a good site on SP but it does not answer this question. TIA


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mje1980

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I prefer sodium percarbonate to PBW. For a keg that’s had beer in it recently I rinse out with water then use a few litres of water with sodium perc and swoosh around for a bit and soak overnight. It’s usually enough.

If it’s filthy or been sitting for months I’d fill it up and soak a few days
 

Naboo

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For a keg that’s had beer in it recently I rinse out with water then use a few litres of water with sodium perc and swoosh around for a bit and soak overnight. It’s usually enough.

If it’s filthy or been sitting for months I’d fill it up and soak a few days
+1 I use PBW but the same method. No need to fill right up. A good shake every now and then helps to remove anything stubborn.
 

Nullnvoid

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I prefer sodium percarbonate to PBW. For a keg that’s had beer in it recently I rinse out with water then use a few litres of water with sodium perc and swoosh around for a bit and soak overnight. It’s usually enough.

If it’s filthy or been sitting for months I’d fill it up and soak a few days
+1 on this too. I just use perc.

I also only fill right to the top if it's absolutely necessary.
 

kadmium

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I like ABC which is Sodium Percent plus chelating agents. Sodium Perc is much cheaper especially the bulk buy so it will be perfect.

Pretty sure in the first thread, we went into detail regarding using a pump and washing the kegs using a mechanical action to get an effective clean.

If you decide not to go down that route, then if the keg has only been used for beer serving a few litres and a good swish rock and roll.

If its the kegs you have that had been sitting around for ages in a paddock, you will want to fill them to the brim and soak them using a 0.5% solution so about 250g per 50L keg.

I would do it per keg and not try fill from one to the next etc. Let them soak a while then give a very thorough rinse out.
 

Grmblz

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HaHa Kadmium beat me to it, I would like to add my 2 bobs worth though, if it's a recently emptied serving keg with a floating dip tube, tri clamp type connector, rinsing then sloshing around a few litres of cleaner before removing the connector for a separate clean should be sufficient, but if the original spear is in place (commercial tapping head used) there's no way for the cleaner to reach the spear surfaces so you're back to pulling the bloody thing out every time, or fill cleaning/sanitising.
If it's been used as a fermenter however (you mentioned pressure fermenting with a 50L in an earlier post) then it will need a complete soak as per Kadmiums advice to get rid of the krausen ring, and any dried yeast further up the keg wall, both chemicals will work a heck of a lot better/quicker if used hot 50c which is one of the limitations of PET fermenters (they melt at 50c).
All of the above (with the exception of heat) also applies to the sanitiser (remember the Perc/PBW only cleans) sanitiser of course is cheaper and can be used multiple times.
I strongly suggest you look into a CIP (clean in place setup) both "K's" sell them or to save some $ a spray ball (ebay) a submersible pump (Bunnings) and a bucket is all you need, 10L of chemical solution will be more than enough, and it's a lot easier to heat 10L than 50L.
Fill cleaning 19L cornies isn't such a big deal but once you step up to 50L it becomes a different ball game, amount of chemical required, and the sheer weight of a full 50L gets old real quick.
 

MHB

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Just be aware that there is a lot of difference between the "cleaning power" of something like Perk or caustic and a mixed product like PPB. PBW contains 5 ingredients that I know of, including caustic (a smidge for pH adjustment) wetting agent that helps cleaner get under the soil (technical term for dirt), sequestering agents that manage metal ions in solution and help prevent the buildup beer stone (something that needs attention).
If you aren't going to fill a container with cleaner, or use a product/process that will remove all the soil prevent beer stone buildup and sanitise properly you will have problems.
Cleaning is a vital part of the brewing process, cut corners at your peril - do so and it will bite you on the arse at some point.
Mark
 

kadmium

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Just be aware that there is a lot of difference between the "cleaning power" of something like Perk or caustic and a mixed product like PPB. PBW contains 5 ingredients that I know of, including caustic (a smidge for pH adjustment) wetting agent that helps cleaner get under the soil (technical term for dirt), sequestering agents that manage metal ions in solution and help prevent the buildup beer stone (something that needs attention).
If you aren't going to fill a container with cleaner, or use a product/process that will remove all the soil prevent beer stone buildup and sanitise properly you will have problems.
Cleaning is a vital part of the brewing process, cut corners at your peril - do so and it will bite you on the arse at some point.
Mark
As usual I was 20% right and MHB filled in the other 80% :D
 

DarrenTheDrunk

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Thanks all. As usual, your posts answered all of the questions. As previously mentioned, I purchased 25kg of SP and 25kg of Sodium Metabisulphite so should have plenty for a very long period.

CBBE
 

mje1980

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I believe they have sodium perc in them but at lower percentages. I have 100% sodium perc. Though lots of people use the above products with no issues
 

MHB

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Napisan Vanish, Sard oxy clean are all sodium percarbonate and do the same job.
They all contain Percarbonate, in various amounts, mostly something like 30%, balance is called filler in the chemical trade (granulated partly hydrated Sodium Carbonate). Trey are designed to get shit out of nappies, not to clean brewing equipment, if you think they will do the same job as made for purpose brewery cleaners, you are wrong.

Sodium Metabisulfite has next to no cleaning power, it doesn't even kill most bacteria, just shuts off their ability to reproduce. To get any effective sanitisation with it you need to make it up into a solution, wet the surfaces then let it air dry as it dries, it gives of Sulphur Dioxide (SO2) that is the sanitiser.
Remember it has a shelf life, I would break it up into small portions and store them in air and moisture tight containers. Otherwise by the time you get to the end it will all have broken down and wont be effective.
Same applies to the Perk, looses its Oxidising power over time, exposure to moisture in the air speeds this up.

Darren you say your an accountant. Work out what a brew costs you in both dollars and time.
How much proper sanitation costs.
How much you would risk knowing for a certainty that poor sanitation will cost you a brew or two in infection losses eventually. On the way your beer will probably get slowly worse and worse until its undrinkable. What usually happens is you adapt to the changing beer, by the time its undrinkable you will lose all your beer in stock and probably all or most of your equipment will be too contaminated to recover and need replacing.
Its one of those cases where being tight is its own punishment.
Mark
 

Grmblz

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^ +1
I think most of us have done it; missed a cleaning/sanitising step, lack of time, oversight or just run out of chemical, and nothing happens, what follows is a false sense of security, and over time we get a bit lax "Oh it's no big deal, I've done it before" and then wham!
As Mark ^ points out, it's a lot easier to keep the gribblies at bay than it is to get rid of them once they've moved in (bit like bad tenants).
It's almost impossible in a homebrew environment to keep all the bugs out, but with a bit of diligence, and good advice it's not hard to keep them at a manageable level.
Learn by the mistakes of others, it's a shit load cheaper, and a lot less frustrating.
 

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