Sodium Percarbonate Surfactant?

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Dicko72

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Hi Folks,

So I bought a 25kg bag of Sodium Percarbonate as I'm about to run out of PBW.
Lots of sites on t'internet indicate that adding a surfactant helps to improve wetting.
Cleaning And Sanitation

I have seen TSP mentioned and detergent.

Before I starting squirting Fairy Liquid in my kettle I thought I would ask about.

What should I use, and in what quantity?

Thanks again!
 

NickB

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2 parts Sodium Percarbonate to 1 part Sodium Metasilicate I believe is the ratio you're after. I just use straight Perc and have no issues.

Cheers
 

manticle

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Straight perc for me too. Without any surfactant, it seems to leave much less of a slick residue than something like napisan which is all I have to compare to. I use with boiling water and it's a gun cleaner.
 

sama

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Hi Folks,

So I bought a 25kg bag of Sodium Percarbonate as I'm about to run out of PBW.
Lots of sites on t'internet indicate that adding a surfactant helps to improve wetting.
Cleaning And Sanitation

I have seen TSP mentioned and detergent.

Before I starting squirting Fairy Liquid in my kettle I thought I would ask about.

What should I use, and in what quantity?

Thanks again!
where did you get it from mate?got a contact number?
 

Wolfy

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TSP is not a surfactant it's Sodium Metasilicate which is the other major component of PBW (see the thread linked by iamozziyob).

Other than the chemicals mentioned in that thread (which are difficult/expensive to obtain in small quantities (you'd only want 125-250g of surfactant for 25kg of Sodium Percarbonate), I'd suggest using a couple of drops of a low fragrance dish-washing-liquid (since the only thing they contain is a surfactant), its what I've been doing for some time.
 

Robbo2234

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2 parts Sodium Percarbonate to 1 part Sodium Metasilicate I believe is the ratio you're after. I just use straight Perc and have no issues.

Cheers
So would this make it a cleaner and sanitizer in one?
 

NickB

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This would essentially be a clone of what PBW is - same active ingredients.

Not that I've done it myself - this what I have read - I am happy with pure Perc as about a teaspoon is enough to clean a fermenter/cube.

Cheers
 

Wolfy

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So would this make it a cleaner and sanitizer in one?
I'm not a chemist, but I dont think there is any reason to expect that adding sodium metasilicate to sodium percarbonate will make the 'mix' any better of a sanitizer than sodium percarbonate is by itself. Sodium percarbonate is viewed (and sold) by some as a sanitizer, but most home brewers consider it to be more suited for cleaning than useful for sanitizing, I believe that the dosage rates for using it as a 'decent' sanitizer are quite large, and much higher than it's usually suggested to be used (for cleaning).
 

Dicko72

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...I'd suggest using a couple of drops of a low fragrance dish-washing-liquid (since the only thing they contain is a surfactant), its what I've been doing for some time.
Hi Wolfy, What ratio would you suggest?
Any particular brand?
I probably wont bother when soaking cubes and fermenters etc.
But i will when using with a sponge in the kettle!

Is it safe to clean beer lines with this? or should I skip the surfactant?
 

Wolfy

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Hi Wolfy, What ratio would you suggest?
Any particular brand?
I probably wont bother when soaking cubes and fermenters etc.
But i will when using with a sponge in the kettle!

Is it safe to clean beer lines with this? or should I skip the surfactant?
Ratio? I was being literal when I said 'a few drops', just enough to make a few bubbles and much less than 'a squirt'. ;)
I went to the supermarket and sniffed all the dish washing liquids and picked the one I found the least offensive, its Palmolive Dry Skin, pH Balanced, Low fragrance.
 

Dicko72

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Ratio? I was being literal when I said 'a few drops', just enough to make a few bubbles and much less than 'a squirt'. ;)
I went to the supermarket and sniffed all the dish washing liquids and picked the one I found the least offensive, its Palmolive Dry Skin, pH Balanced, Low fragrance.
Excellent that should keep my hands nice and soft...
 

Bribie G

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Perc is basically "solid" peroxide which gives off oxygen that zaps organic stuff - like baby shit on nappies and trub stuck to fermenters - and the end result is "spent" sodium carbonate minus the free oxygen. Sodium Carbonate is good old washing soda.

So it does eat the nasties and certainly would zap bacteria and wild yeasts. However it only zaps them during the oxygen releasing stage, and if you don't add enough initially it will run out of ammunition towards the end and no doubt a lot of bugs will remain. So I wouldn't depend on it a sanitizer. I use it as a cleaner and de-scummer which it does brilliantly. Then rinse and use a real sanitizer such as Starsan.

Perc is also a brilliant false teeth cleaner :lol:
I have my own teeth but I demonstrated it to someone on their set (in glass not mouth) and it was spectacular B)
 

Smokomark

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2 parts Sodium Percarbonate to 1 part Sodium Metasilicate I believe is the ratio you're after. I just use straight Perc and have no issues.

Cheers

Where did you get the sodium perc from?
 

NickB

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There was a bulk buy last year (maybe early this year) by Jameson - PM him for the details, but from memory, out 25kg sacks were something like $80 each with a minimum of 10. Even for a single sack, if around the $100 mark, it's exceptional value and mine will honestly last me probably 4 or 5 years.... Maybe look at splitting with 3 others, and you've got a probably 1 year+ supply for around $25...

Cheers
 

kelbygreen

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straight sodium perc is fine for cleaning anything that wont rust. I found out that it will rust steel overnight, I also found out that the cheap filter case I bought did not have SS or brass ball valvle (well the outside was brass but not the inside, also the screw in the bleeder rusted right out overnight
 

siiren

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Sodium Metasiicate replaced TSP in cleaning products as it contains no Phosphates. TSP (Tri Sodium Phosphate) contributed to an increase of blue/green algae in our waterways.
I use both at work and TSP is definitely the stronger cleaner of the two. Painters also use it to etch a previously painted surface before coating a wall.
TSP can be bought from the big green shed's paint section sold as tricleanium or something like that.
I will have a play around with the two mixed with Sodium Percarbonate (when I pick some up next) and post the results.
I usually use Napisan to clean my brewing gear but end up spending too long rinsing to remove the surfactant residue.
 

Dicko72

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Where are you? It can be source cheaper than posted above depending on your supplier. If in Melbourne a bag can be obtained for under $50.

Yob
Abcoe was $85 for 25kg
 

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