So2 Vs Sodium Percarbonate

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Jase71

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Hi all, happy public holiday !

In seeking a more readily available bulk sanitising solution (ie stuff from the supermarket) I just picked up a tub of nappy soak powder, which is a generic branded sodium percarbonate. Is this OK for giving the fermenter/taps/hoses etc a quick scrub with? I read somewherethat Napisan is often used, but this is 'home brand' and I don't know if it's the same ingredients.

It also lays no claim to having a fragance, but when I take a sniff, it presents a slight lemon-like aroma. Wondering if this is a hallmark of the compunds, or if it's been added...................

So is it acceptable for food-grade applications ?
 
Hi all, happy public holiday !

In seeking a more readily available bulk sanitising solution (ie stuff from the supermarket) I just picked up a tub of nappy soak powder, which is a generic branded sodium percarbonate. Is this OK for giving the fermenter/taps/hoses etc a quick scrub with? I read somewherethat Napisan is often used, but this is 'home brand' and I don't know if it's the same ingredients.

It also lays no claim to having a fragance, but when I take a sniff, it presents a slight lemon-like aroma. Wondering if this is a hallmark of the compunds, or if it's been added...................

So is it acceptable for food-grade applications ?

This one's been done to death Jase. Do an advanced search and you'll find heaps of quite recent traffic . There is much more other stuff in your tin than sodpercarb (which is usually around 30% of the contents). As a simple alternative, this homebrand nappy cleaner will do a good job but the lemon scent may be a problem - you can get unscented. Might be best to use this for bottle cleaning and hoses etc but I'd be worried about the fermenter taking on all the scent. Maybe good also use this as a soaker then rinse well with boiling water/ iodopher / bleach - whatever you sanitize with.
The lemon spell is great for nappies though !
 
Jase, I use the one that is literally called home brand, and is available form KMart. Use it for the fermenter, taps, and also for kegs I bought second hand that needed a very thorough clean. Yeah it does have a sort of pleasant smell to it that seems like it could be fake but I dunno and I've never had problems and never smelt it in the beer. Always rinse afterwards obviously. I find I can't actually smell it after a good rinse anyway and I have a pretty good sense of smell.
 
This one's been done to death Jase.

No searching on my part, I admit - but I wondered if the name-brand Napisan was perhaps SO2, where the home-brand was not.......

Also wonder if it is actually scented, or if its just the aroma from the salts/surfactants itself....... Cant see it being a major issue for the fermenter if I give it a good water bath after applying this product.
 
I think you will find that the Active Ingredients will be listed on the container; its often worth reading the fine print.

I can however absolutely assure you that it isnt SO2, if it was you would know for sure, generally by the curled nose hairs and the sneezing attacks that follow a good sniff.

The balance of the ingredients will be fillers, probably a fair amount of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda).

MHB
 
I think you will find that the "Active Ingredients" will be listed on the container; it's often worth reading the fine print.

I can however absolutely assure you that it isn't SO2, if it was you would know for sure, generally by the curled nose hairs and the sneezing attacks that follow a good sniff.

The balance of the ingredients will be fillers, probably a fair amount of Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda).

MHB

Yes you would think so, but no the only listing is for the active ingredient of Sodium Percarbonate @ 346g/kg. I specifically looked on the label for unwanted additives, and there are none. Let me get this straight, does this at least tell me that there's roughly 65 % of unknowns ? Inert fillers is probably fine (what, chalk?) but the aromatics are a concern, if pure Sodium Percarbonate doesn't have a lemonesque aroma.

I know it's not SO2, which is the reason for my post in the first place.

I'm also fine to bin it if its not appropriate for brewing. (well at least reserve it for stuff like household cleaning - hell I should have a baby!). It was about three bucks, perhaps four tops, so no big deal.
 
Yes you would think so, but no the only listing is for the active ingredient of Sodium Percarbonate @ 346g/kg. I specifically looked on the label for unwanted additives, and there are none. Let me get this straight, does this at least tell me that there's roughly 65 % of unknowns ? Inert fillers is probably fine (what, chalk?) but the aromatics are a concern, if pure Sodium Percarbonate doesn't have a lemonesque aroma.

I know it's not SO2, which is the reason for my post in the first place.

I'm also fine to bin it if its not appropriate for brewing. (well at least reserve it for stuff like household cleaning - hell I should have a baby!). It was about three bucks, perhaps four tops, so no big deal.


My sack of sodium percarbonate has no aroma that I can distinguish.

Use this stuff - its okay, just not the duck's nuts. Remember, its only a cleaner, not a steriliser. as said before, use it, just rinse everything well and then use sterilizer which will probably smell worse that this stuff !
 
just smelled my sod. percarb {90%+}
neutral.
and forget about the baby.

stagga.
 
Remember, its only a cleaner, not a steriliser.

Except that a heck of a lot of disinfectants seem to be oxidants of various strengths (iodine, chlorine, peroxide, permanganate, etc). Pick one that works well under basic conditions (unlike, say, hypochlorite) and it would appear that you get a combo grease eater as well. Add some surfactant for even more organic-dissolving power. Metabisulphite is the odd man out as it is an anti-oxidant, although the resultant SO2 is apparently the actual sanitiser. Hardly any substances qualify as sterilisers. There also seems to be less consensus about whether extremes of acidity or basicity are enough to kill unwanted microbes.
 
Add some surfactant for even more organic-dissolving power.

NEVER, EVER, EVER mix cleaning products, surfactants mixed with other cleaning products can give off noxious gasses and heat that(esepecially in summer) can cause combustion. Hence the reason for household cleaning products being used as improvised explosives. Oxidizing agent + Organic matter(from surfatants) = no no.

Aaron
 
if you are looking for a cost effective vs readily available sanitising option, IMHO you can't go past Starsan. 1 ml / 1 L the stuff just lasts for ever. works out at 3c per litre. Craftbrewer and all good HBS would have it.
 
Pink Stain Remover PSR is the best quick effective cleaning and dare I say sanatising. For long soak applications in S/S use Sodium Percarbonate.
 
if you are looking for a cost effective vs readily available sanitising option, IMHO you can't go past Starsan. 1 ml / 1 L the stuff just lasts for ever. works out at 3c per litre. Craftbrewer and all good HBS would have it.

Thunderchild, I may be wrong but I'm using Starsan at 1.5ml/L. As you say, a little goes a long way. Someone might clarify the dosage for us.
 
Pink Stain Remover PSR is the best quick effective cleaning and dare I say sanatising. For long soak applications in S/S use Sodium Percarbonate.

Just be sure not to use any caustic product that is also chlorinated with copper components - it will kill them. Caustic only is OK - but don't use caustic+chlorinated (like many of the pink sanitisers) with your immersion chiller.
 
NEVER, EVER, EVER mix cleaning products, surfactants mixed with other cleaning products can give off noxious gasses and heat that(esepecially in summer) can cause combustion. Hence the reason for household cleaning products being used as improvised explosives. Oxidizing agent + Organic matter(from surfatants) = no no.

Well, the logical conclusion then is don't use the vast majority of oxidant cleaners/sanitisers on dirty fermenters. My recollection of the OH&S issues is:

1. No strong oxidants around nitro/nitrate compounds - explosion risk (see fertiliser bombs). AFAIAA, this aspect does not include ammonium compounds.

2. Don't mix anything that is likely to give you a concentrated jolt of noxious gas such as chlorine or ammonia. So that includes acidifying household bleach (plenty of brewers recommending that one), basifying ammonia (which effectively happens on a minor scale when we clean fermenters), and for that matter acidifying metabisulphite solutions.

Whilst I'm on the job, it's worth pointing out that the alkalinity of percarbonate cleaners probably acts as a brake upon the oxidant effects of the peroxide. As with bleach, acidification could increase the sanitiser effectiveness at a cost of less cleaning power and more risk.

As for the sentiment that percarbonate products "last forever", well yes they do if maintained dry. Solutions will lose their oxidising although not their cleaning properties rapidly. Same as the difference between liquid bleach and dry hypochlorite.
 
Just be sure not to use any caustic product that is also chlorinated with copper components - it will kill them. Caustic only is OK - but don't use caustic+chlorinated (like many of the pink sanitisers) with your immersion chiller.
According to the MSDS for sodium percarbonate, I wouldn't use it with Aluminium or Copper anyway (corrosive). Also according to the MSDS, if it's pure it should be odorless. Of course, it's probably not pure.

I've got the Coles brand 'sensitive' one and it seems pretty unfragrant.
 
:icon_offtopic:

Ok,

So what is PBW (Powery Brew Wash) people mention here? Used to clean beer lines, plate chillers etc.


BOG
 
Well, the logical conclusion then is don't use the vast majority of oxidant cleaners/sanitisers on dirty fermenters. My recollection of the OH&S issues is:

1. No strong oxidants around nitro/nitrate compounds - explosion risk (see fertiliser bombs). AFAIAA, this aspect does not include ammonium compounds.

2. Don't mix anything that is likely to give you a concentrated jolt of noxious gas such as chlorine or ammonia. So that includes acidifying household bleach (plenty of brewers recommending that one), basifying ammonia (which effectively happens on a minor scale when we clean fermenters), and for that matter acidifying metabisulphite solutions.

Whilst I'm on the job, it's worth pointing out that the alkalinity of percarbonate cleaners probably acts as a brake upon the oxidant effects of the peroxide. As with bleach, acidification could increase the sanitiser effectiveness at a cost of less cleaning power and more risk.

As for the sentiment that percarbonate products "last forever", well yes they do if maintained dry. Solutions will lose their oxidising although not their cleaning properties rapidly. Same as the difference between liquid bleach and dry hypochlorite.

RE to 1. Dont mix ammonium product with halogen containing products as you can make touch explosives in the right enviroment. Nitro and nitrate are strong oxidants already, pottasium nitrate being the key ingredient in black powder. Keep nitrates away from organic peroxides and solvents and strong acids (especially H2SO4 google if you want).

RE to 2. +1 for not mixing chlorine with ammonia(or anytihng else for that matter). In regards to basifying ammonia this will happen as soon as ammonia comes in contact with water so nothing to worry about, however when in doubt, don't.

As for the comment about cleaning dirty fermenters, fair enough, however i generaly(as with most other brewers, at least ones Ive talked to) will rinse there fermenter out so all that left is residual ammounts of beer, yeast etc. and as a result there wouldn't be enough organic matter to advocate a run away reaction. I still stand by my earlier comment on not mixing cleaners together no matter what the situation is.
 
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