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So, What's This Floral/fruity Ester, Solventy Flavour In My Beer?

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Fat Bastard

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It's in 2 batches, fermented with different yeasts (Coopers Pale Ale and WLP-001) in 2 different beers with 2 different hop profiles, fermented almost simultaneously in the same space @ 15-17 degrees C. At first I thought it was from the Cluster, which I've not used before in the Aus. Pale Ale, but it's showed up in an American Brown too. I've just checked the second batch of Aus Pale Ale, and it's there, but very much reduced, and may be the normal fruitiness of Cooper's yeast.

There's a 50/50 chance the 2 lots were fermented in the same cube, so I'm thinking infection. It doesn't taste bad or even unpleasant, but it is quite cloying. I can put up with it in the AuPA but not in the ABA.

I'd almost describe it as solventy, as it smells similar to Hoppe's #9 Bore Solvent (If youre a shooter, you'll probably know what that smells like), kind of floral and fruity rather than like acetone or petrol or paint thinners.

I can't think of any other commonalities which I haven't ruled out by trying the latest AuPA, which shares the same hops and grain as the other.

I clean my cubes with boiling Napisan and although I don't dismantle my taps because every single one I've pulled apart leaks after a few goes, I do run boiling napisan through them, soak them in starsan while operating them 10-20 times and finally boil them for 5-10 minutes before refitting to the cube before the ferment.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Cheers,

FB
 

Dunkelbrau

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It's in 2 batches, fermented with different yeasts (Coopers Pale Ale and WLP-001) in 2 different beers with 2 different hop profiles, fermented almost simultaneously in the same space @ 15-17 degrees C. At first I thought it was from the Cluster, which I've not used before in the Aus. Pale Ale, but it's showed up in an American Brown too. I've just checked the second batch of Aus Pale Ale, and it's there, but very much reduced, and may be the normal fruitiness of Cooper's yeast.

There's a 50/50 chance the 2 lots were fermented in the same cube, so I'm thinking infection. It doesn't taste bad or even unpleasant, but it is quite cloying. I can put up with it in the AuPA but not in the ABA.

I'd almost describe it as solventy, as it smells similar to Hoppe's #9 Bore Solvent (If youre a shooter, you'll probably know what that smells like), kind of floral and fruity rather than like acetone or petrol or paint thinners.

I can't think of any other commonalities which I haven't ruled out by trying the latest AuPA, which shares the same hops and grain as the other.

I clean my cubes with boiling Napisan and although I don't dismantle my taps because every single one I've pulled apart leaks after a few goes, I do run boiling napisan through them, soak them in starsan while operating them 10-20 times and finally boil them for 5-10 minutes before refitting to the cube before the ferment.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Cheers,

FB
No idea on the flavours but I know you will get asked if you're kegging or bottling..
 

Fat Bastard

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No idea on the flavours but I know you will get asked if you're kegging or bottling..
Bottles.

Followed the same sanitisation routine for each of the 3 brews.
 

Matt Browne

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Hey mate,

No idea but maybe take a bottle around to one of the guys in the club.
They may be able to help!!

Cheers Matt
 

hoppy2B

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Cluster can be a bit like that. You don't mention if you used Cluster in all the brews you thought had that flavour.
 

pk.sax

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I traced something similar to brand new plastic parts in the bottling line which were still leaching a slight plasticky taste. Have you added any new tubing, Randall etc?!
 

manticle

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There is a higher alcohol and related ester that can give a rose like quality. Could be a combination of various alcohols and esters as fruit, floral and solvent are all used to describe various other ones.

As suggested by PF: could be your equipment. Run boiling water through all your plastic stuff and hoses, allow it to cool and taste it. Anything like the flavour you are tasting?
 

NewtownClown

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In my recent experience with Cooper's & WLP001, they both ferment very clean at 15-17C, even the Cooper's usual "fruitiness" is very subdued, so we can rule out the yeast (unless both are + 5 generations old, maybe).

Using the same brand of "Napi-San" you normally use? You didn't accidentally purchase a scented one?
 

QldKev

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Have you got a second thermometer to check the temps? maybe it's warmer than you think?

Also are you using a pvc hose? That remind's me of the taste I got from when I used a pvc hose after about 3 months of use.

What was the FG?



QldKev
 

hoppy2B

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Its implied that he did not, read it again.

I have no idea mate. He's says its in 2 different brews and that at first he thought it was from the Cluster. Does that mean he used Cluster in 2 different brews?
It could mean he tried the first brew and it had that flavour and put it down to Cluster. Then when he tried the second brew it had the same flavour and was there Cluster in that too or not?
I'm not psychic like you Yob. :lol:
 

Yob

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It's in 2 batches, fermented with different yeasts (Coopers Pale Ale and WLP-001) in 2 different beers with 2 different hop profiles, fermented almost simultaneously in the same space @ 15-17 degrees C. At first I thought it was from the Cluster, which I've not used before in the Aus. Pale Ale, but it's showed up in an American Brown too. I've just checked the second batch of Aus Pale Ale, and it's there, but very much reduced, and may be the normal fruitiness of Cooper's yeast.
FFS... Does this help? You dont have to read minds... just text..

;)

If Im mistaken and read it wrong myself then full retraction applies... but I dont think so..
 

hoppy2B

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Aside from lots of citrus fruitiness I also get a vodka like flavour from Cluster if that helps you Fat Bastard.
 

Fat Bastard

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I don't think the aroma/flavour is from the gear, apart from the ferment vessel. Possibly. All three brews were done with the same gear, same grain and hops from the same source (Nick JD's generous free pound). I did buy a new cube from Bunnings recently, but of course, which FV I used is not something I've kept records of, but will in future. I've got brews in two of the cubes currently and the one that is empty now doesn't smell like the aroma I'm complaining about. I reckon if one of the two brews fermenting currently has the same problem, I'll have traced it, but none of the fermenter samples currently does.

I'll post up the recipes here to see if anyone can see anything glaringly obvious to more experienced eyes than mine.

The first two display the taste/aroma I'm talking about

BB POR Cluster PA
Australian Pale Ale

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.400
Total Hops (g): 75.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.049 (P): 12.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.81 %
Colour (SRM): 6.4 (EBC): 12.6
Bitterness (IBU): 34.1 (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 90
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Pale Malt (90.91%)
0.200 kg Carared (4.55%)
0.200 kg Crystal 60 (4.55%)

Hop Bill
----------------
30.0 g Pride of Ringwood Pellet (8.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)
15.0 g Cluster Pellet (5.7% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
30.0 g Cluster Pellet (5.7% Alpha) @ -10 Minutes (Aroma) (1.2 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
8.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
5.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
4.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
8.0 g Brewbrite @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Step mash. 52/10, 64/60, 72/10, 77/10
Fermented at 15-18C with Cooper's Ale Yeast (Recultured)


Recipe Generated with BrewMate

BB American Brown Ale
American Brown Ale

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.180
Total Hops (g): 162.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.056 (P): 13.8
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014 (P): 3.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.50 %
Colour (SRM): 19.8 (EBC): 39.0
Bitterness (IBU): 26.8 (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 89
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Pale Malt (77.22%)
0.800 kg Crystal 60 (15.44%)
0.200 kg Chocolate (3.86%)
0.180 kg Carared (3.47%)

Hop Bill
----------------
20.0 g Willamette Pellet (7.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
10.0 g Centennial Pellet (9.7% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
10.0 g Centennial Pellet (9.7% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.4 g/L)
15.0 g Centennial Pellet (9.7% Alpha) @ -10 Minutes (Aroma) (0.6 g/L)
27.0 g Willamette Pellet (7.1% Alpha) @ -10 Minutes (Aroma) (1.1 g/L)
40.0 g Centennial Pellet (9.7% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop) (1.6 g/L)
40.0 g East Kent Golding Pellet (4.7% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop) (1.6 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
6.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
3.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
8.0 g Brewbrite @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Step Mash 52/10, 68/60, 72/10, 77/10

Fermented at 15-18C with WLP001 - California Ale

Recipe Generated with BrewMate

And this one is seemingly unnafected, although displays a similar, but much reduced character

BB POR Cluster PA #2
Australian Pale Ale

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.200
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.047 (P): 11.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.62 %
Colour (SRM): 5.5 (EBC): 10.8
Bitterness (IBU): 28.8 (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 90
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Pale Malt (95.24%)
0.200 kg Crystal 60 (4.76%)

Hop Bill
----------------
25.0 g Pride of Ringwood Pellet (8.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
15.0 g Cluster Pellet (5.7% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
40.0 g Cluster Pellet (5.7% Alpha) @ -10 Minutes (Aroma) (1.6 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
6.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
3.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
3.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
8.0 g Brewbrite @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Step mash. 52/10, 64/60, 72/10, 77/10
Fermented at 15-18C with Cooper's Ale Yeast (Recultured)

Recipe Generated with BrewMate

The -10 minute additions are added to the whirlpool 10 minutes after flame-out and steep for 20 minutes before draining through the chiller and the dry hop is 7 days before bottling.

The American Brown is a bit of a chuck together recipe!

Thanks for all your helpful replies so far!

Cheers,

FB
 

hoppy2B

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I recon the amount of Cluster you have in the first and last displayed brews would give a fair kick from my experience. You might even get some from something like Centennial which I've not used, but isn't that described as a super Cascade. These are all hops that will give you a shipload of citrus.
 

malt_shovel

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Any chance you can post some details on the yeast? How did you culture the coopers yeast and how old was the beer it was cultured from? Similar question on the WLP001. Some history on the yeast would be good as i think it is a good chance it the culprit but need some more info. Also did you reach your expected FG? Apologies if u already mention this. Using phone fir this post.
Cheers
 

Fat Bastard

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I recon the amount of Cluster you have in the first and last displayed brews would give a fair kick from my experience. You might even get some from something like Centennial which I've not used, but isn't that described as a super Cascade. These are all hops that will give you a shipload of citrus.
The hops were what I blamed at first, but the last AuPA has more cluster late than the first and has a similar, but much reduced character

Any chance you can post some details on the yeast? How did you culture the coopers yeast and how old was the beer it was cultured from? Similar question on the WLP001. Some history on the yeast would be good as i think it is a good chance it the culprit but need some more info. Also did you reach your expected FG? Apologies if u already mention this. Using phone fir this post.
Cheers
Ok, from my notes , the first AuPA hit 1.011, target 1.012. Close enough, but a bit high for style. Yeast was recultured from a 6 pack from Dan's probably 3 days from brew day. It had a good solid krausen on the (1 litre of 1.040 wort) starter, and was pitched whole, while still obviously active. The beer tasted ok

The American Brown finished at 1.005, which was well under the target of 1.014. Yeast was recultured from recovered yeast from a previous ABA, which displayed none of the character I'm complaining about. started in 1 litre of 1.040 wort, 3 days out and pitched whole with a good krausen and still obviously active. beer tasted ok from memory. I'm finding all my WLP-001 brews finish well below the expected gravity, so this didn't raise a flag

the last AuPA basically followed the first, except it was 3 longnecks from Dans. Tasted good. For some reason I missed my FG of and added 400g of white sugar to get 1.052, which overshot my target of 1.047, but finished up with a much more to style FG of 1.005. This one is the best of the two AuPA's

All brews were dropped from the top of the cube for aeration, as is my standard process, and no yeast nutrient was added.
 

Screwtop

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The hops were what I blamed at first, but the last AuPA has more cluster late than the first and has a similar, but much reduced character



Ok, from my notes , the first AuPA hit 1.011, target 1.012. Close enough, but a bit high for style. Yeast was recultured from a 6 pack from Dan's probably 3 days from brew day. It had a good solid krausen on the (1 litre of 1.040 wort) starter, and was pitched whole, while still obviously active. The beer tasted ok

The American Brown finished at 1.005, which was well under the target of 1.014. Yeast was recultured from recovered yeast from a previous ABA, which displayed none of the character I'm complaining about. started in 1 litre of 1.040 wort, 3 days out and pitched whole with a good krausen and still obviously active. beer tasted ok from memory. I'm finding all my WLP-001 brews finish well below the expected gravity, so this didn't raise a flag

the last AuPA basically followed the first, except it was 3 longnecks from Dans. Tasted good. For some reason I missed my FG of and added 400g of white sugar to get 1.052, which overshot my target of 1.047, but finished up with a much more to style FG of 1.005. This one is the best of the two AuPA's

All brews were dropped from the top of the cube for aeration, as is my standard process, and no yeast nutrient was added.

Highly attenuated beers using POR and Cluster......................... take yourself outside right now and give yourself 3 swift uppercuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Screwy
 

Fat Bastard

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Highly attenuated beers using POR and Cluster......................... take yourself outside right now and give yourself 3 swift uppercuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Screwy
Now sporting three black eyes...

Still struggling to work out what this weird flavour is down to. I've pretty much ruled out the gear bar the fermenter, and that's now gone down to a 33% chance. It'll be eliminated in the coming week or so when I check the last full one.

The only thing I can think of is that some mis labelled hops got in there somehow. It's shown up to a greater or lesser degree in the 2 AuPA's, although strangely the one with the greater amount of late hops has less of the weird aroma. The only other link between the ABA and the first AuPA is the use of Carared, which I've also used in a Red IPA which has none of the same character.

Weird.
 

Fat Bastard

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Just a quick follow up on this.

The odd flavour and aroma seems to be fading. I've just cracked a bottle of the first AuPA and it's very much reduced and much less cloying. At this stage I'm leaning towards overuse of cluster as being the culprit, as the other brews I've done without cluster since do not have this flavour at all.

It's quite nice now. I may just have to crack another just to be sure!
 

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