Slow Start

[Hashie]

I put down a Coopers lager yesterday morning and it has taken 26 hours for any airlock activity.

What I made;

Coopers Lager
500 grams Dex
500 grams LDME
175 grams Crystal grain
12 grams Sticklebract hops (finishing)

OG 1060
Pitching temp. 21 degrees C

I've been making Coopers International series beers for the last couple of years and have come back to the original series just for a change. I swear it must be a different yeast, the Canadian blonde or Bavarian lager never took this long to kick off.

I have no doubt it will brew without trouble but am a bit amazed at the speed/activity of the different yeast.

Maybe it's time I started using Saflager or something similar...

 

[pint of lager]

The usual reason for changes in the speed of the brew starting to ferment is the amount of viable yeast present.

If the kit has been subject to poor storage conditions, some of the yeast could be dead which means it takes longer for the brew to kick off. When the kits are transported, if that side of the truck is in the sun in summer, the temperatures can soar and cook the poor yeasts in their sachets.

Also if the kit is near its use by date will mean that the yeast is not as viable, (some have died.)

 

[mika]

Hashie, I second POL on the freshness of the yeast. I've had some of the Safyeasts not start at all and one was bubbling soooo slowly that I got worried it wouldn't make it thru the brew and pitched the generic yeast under the lid of the can. And I swear to this day my technique was good, must have just been the yeast had carked it :unsure:
So now I always make sure the yeast is good before starting the brew, but let's not get started on that again

 

[Hashie]

Thanks for the reply fellas.
I should have said, the use by date on the can was August 2008 and while Coopers don't have a best by date on the yeast sachet the code was 018-06.
So I'm guessing it was all fresh.

The beer is working well now, all is good.

 

[dicko]

Thanks for the reply fellas.
I should have said, the use by date on the can was August 2008 and while Coopers don't have a best by date on the yeast sachet the code was 018-06.
So I'm guessing it was all fresh.

The beer is working well now, all is good.

It is good news that the brew has kicked on Hashie.
I think POL and micka were enforcing that no matter how fresh the kit is, if the yeast under the lid has been subject to excessive heat, eg direct sun for an extended period, then there may not be the reqired amount of viable yeast.
It is a shame that the kit manufacturers cant give the consumer a reasonable amount of yeast in the sachet under the lid to allow for variables in storage and transport.

Cheers

 

[Coppo]

Thanks for the reply fellas.
I should have said, the use by date on the can was August 2008 and while Coopers don't have a best by date on the yeast sachet the code was 018-06.
So I'm guessing it was all fresh.

The beer is working well now, all is good.

It is good news that the brew has kicked on Hashie.
I think POL and micka were enforcing that no matter how fresh the kit is, if the yeast under the lid has been subject to excessive heat, eg direct sun for an extended period, then there may not be the reqired amount of viable yeast.
It is a shame that the kit manufacturers cant give the consumer a reasonable amount of yeast in the sachet under the lid to allow for variables in storage and transport.

Cheers

Interesting this thread! I put down the following on the weekend-
Beermakers Dutch Lager
1kg DME
250gms Dextrose
15gms Hallateu hops
Saflager yeast pitched at 20 degrees

After 30 hours, still no airlock activity. Brew is sitting on 15 degrees at the moment.

Should I be worried? How long before I will need to pitch another yeast????

 

[mika]

How good are you nerves ?
No bubbling may just mean that the lid is not sealing properly, look for muck (Krausen) on the side of the fermentor just above the level of the brew. If that's not there, peer thru the lid and see if you can see any surface activity (white foam bubbling). If you can't see any of the above and you're using a reasonable yeast (not what's under the lid) I've only ever lasted 48hrs before pitching another... but then I get nervous easily.
If you're using the yeast under the lid of a supermarket can, it may not like 15deg much....maybe.

 

[Coppo]

How good are you nerves ?
No bubbling may just mean that the lid is not sealing properly, look for muck (Krausen) on the side of the fermentor just above the level of the brew. If that's not there, peer thru the lid and see if you can see any surface activity (white foam bubbling). If you can't see any of the above and you're using a reasonable yeast (not what's under the lid) I've only ever lasted 48hrs before pitching another... but then I get nervous easily.
If you're using the yeast under the lid of a supermarket can, it may not like 15deg much....maybe.

Hmmmm, still nothing after almost 3 days. Oh, the lid is darn tight. Now I am getting nervous. First lager I've made that is causing me a bit of grief.
Any suggestions, another yeast???? I only put one yeast satchet in, and after reading a few other threads, I see others are putting 2 or 3 satchets in.

 

[Steve]

Coppo - is there any krausen or build up of sediment in the bottom of the fermenter?

 

[Trough Lolly]

Coppo,
Whilst the krausen ring of confidence will confirm that your yeast has entered the anaerobic / attenuative phase, you might not have much sediment in the bottom of the fermenter due to the nature of the brew - your recipe will not have much trub or cold break matter and the relatively modest hop bill may be hard to spot in the fermenter (assuming you aren't using a glass carboy).
It's possible that your yeast is still going through an extended adaptive phase, with the possibly small and strained population of viable cells working hard to add to the overall population with the existing nutrients (sugars) and the oxygen in the wort - you may not know it but the malt extract won't have much in the way of amino acids and other key nutrients to assist in cell wall nutrition. In fact, the best nutrient base for building yeast starters is to do a mini mash from grains.
Before you retire for the evening, I'd suggest you sterilise your stirrer, take the lid off and give the wort a good whirlpool to rouse the yeast through the solution. If the wort shows no action in the morning, call it a dud yeast, and add some more - if the HBS is nearby, grab a couple of sachets of W34/70 or whatever dry lager yeast they have, out of their fridge stock and sprinkle directly onto the wort surface for a quick and easy fix. You should have action and a fermenting lager within 12 hours.
Cheers,
TL

 

[mika]

Trough Lolly, is W34/70 a good choice ? I noticed in Hashie's original post he pitched at 21degs though doesn't say what the fermentation temp is. W34/70 is ideally for 12 to 15deg, much higher I thought might kill the yeast ??

 

[Hashie]

Mika, I am using the coopers kit yeast that comes with their Lager.

Brewing temp 18 deg.

Cheers

 

[mika]

Any of the true lager yeasts I think will need to be fermented at lower temps than that so the Coopers yeast is probably the best thing for that temp. I think if you try to use S-23 or W34/70 at 18degs, it will kill it....but then I'm no expert on lagers

 

[Bizarre]

Any of the true lager yeasts I think will need to be fermented at lower temps than that so the Coopers yeast is probably the best thing for that temp. I think if you try to use S-23 or W34/70 at 18degs, it will kill it....but then I'm no expert on lagers

Na it wont kill it Mika - I started a lager about a week and a half ago with34/70 and its pitch temp was 20/21 C. Next morning it was bubbling away happily - its in the coldest room in the house and its temperature is currently about 12 - its still going but its veeeerrryyyy sllllooooooooooooowww!

I actually read somewhere (and I'll be stuffed if I can remember where!) to start the ferment round about 20 or so and then reduce the temperature down from there. Point being that the yeast multiply rapidly and become the dominant culture so that reduces the risk of spoilage.

 

[recharge]

You can definately use the lager yeast at ale temps no probs. Ive done it a few times with saflager.

Rich

 

[stephen]

The ideal temps for lager yeasts are often quoted at being somewhere between 9 and 15 degrees. These are the optimum temps to produce best results: ie a nice dry finish (dependant on many variables) and little or no esters. Using a lager yeast at higher temps than these is the same as using an ale yeast in the high 20's/low 30's: You produce a lot of esters and possibly fusel alcohols. These detract from the lager style.

However, Californian Steam Beer is very much a beer made somewhat as a lager but brewed at ale temps.

Disclaimer, I am running on faded grey matter and if others feel that htere is some small or large error in what I have said I am happy to be corrected: That way I learn as well.

Steve

 

[mika]

Well there ya go...just made a liar out of me

 

[vlbaby]

my first lager back when i didnt know much better was using saflager w34/70. I fermented it at 24 degC and it when off like a cracker, produced a horid suplhur rotten egg smell, and at the end of ferment tasted like apples.
However, after several months of aging it turned out to be not too bad.
This higher temp is definetly not ideal for a lager, but it certainly won't destroy it. But given a choice, you should stick to around 12 degC. for the best results.


vl.

 

[recharge]

I was in no way suggesting one trys to make a lager at higher temps just that it would ferment. Saflager(s23) makes a mediocre ale yeast at best.

Rich

 

[Trough Lolly]

Any of the true lager yeasts I think will need to be fermented at lower temps than that so the Coopers yeast is probably the best thing for that temp. I think if you try to use S-23 or W34/70 at 18degs, it will kill it....but then I'm no expert on lagers

Na it wont kill it Mika - I started a lager about a week and a half ago with34/70 and its pitch temp was 20/21 C. Next morning it was bubbling away happily - its in the coldest room in the house and its temperature is currently about 12 - its still going but its veeeerrryyyy sllllooooooooooooowww!

I actually read somewhere (and I'll be stuffed if I can remember where!) to start the ferment round about 20 or so and then reduce the temperature down from there. Point being that the yeast multiply rapidly and become the dominant culture so that reduces the risk of spoilage.

It's true that S-23, S-189 or W34/70 etc will happily ferment at 18 degrees and higher. In fact, many lager brewers make their liquid yeast lager starters at these temps and higher, in order to make more yeast prior to pitching - after all, they're making yeast not beer! Once the starter population is large enough, they pitch the starter into the wort and it's at this point where the lively debate on lager yeast temps really kicks into gear. There are threads on this topic elsewhere on the forum...

Basically, one school of thought is to make lager starters at pitching temps (around 10C) so the yeast is used to and familiar with the final destination and should therefore reduce the adaptive lag that occurs before the wort is attenuated/fermented by the yeast. Another school of thought is to get on with rapidly growing a nice large lager yeast population (at around 20C) and slowly bring the starter down to the wort's temp (around 10C) before pitching to reduce temperature shock on the yeast cells, which involves prior planning and good timing. Of course, all this discussion is largely moot if you use dry lager yeast since it doesn't necessarily have to be started in wort prior to pitching as it has many of the glycogens and trehalose elements already present and it can be added directly to the chilled (or indeed unchilled) wort.

As Rich suggests, the yeast is pretty hardy and it would be a dud batch of W34/70 that carked it at 18C but the quality of the lager ferment at temps above 16C would be of some concern. Lager yeast at these relatively high temps will ferment as I originally stated, but they would be prone to generating fusels that would impart an undesireably harsh solvent like flavour to the beer. The yeast would also generate noticeable estery notes in the beer and some scientific articles show that ester production can peak late in fermentation and are significantly affected by the temp of the wort, so leaving the lager at room temps late in fermentation for extended periods of time is a good way to introduce esters, typically pears and apples in perceptable flavour, to the beer.
Cheers,
TL