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Skip bittering additions with hopstand?

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rockeye84

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Hey all,

Just adjusting my recipe for my next hop stand experiment, with the amount of late boil & hop stand hops I want to use I have I no need for a bitttering addition. Is it ok to get all your IBU's from late boil & hop stand additions? I know an early boil addition breaks the surface tension helps with boil overs etc, but i don’t really want any extra ibu's.

Last brew I was aiming for about 35-40ibu, from my adjustments after in beersmith2 I guestimate it was about 65-70ibu, still a good drop just, a little too bitter for my tastes.

It seems contrary to the info on the net, I personally found a hop stand 20min @ 75-80c still does add a whack of bitterness. Complexity of hop character is defiantly better with late boil + hop stand + dryhop.

Heres my brew for whoever is interested..

Batch Size: 42.00 l
Boil Time: 60 min

62.00 l Rain Water
16.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)
8.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins)
6.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins)

6.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 5 67.4 %
1.80 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 6 20.2 %
0.60 kg Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (155.0 EBC) Grain 7 6.7 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 8 5.6 %

20.00 g Add at 10 Min - AU Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 9 5.4 IBUs
20.00 g Add at 10 Min - Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 10 11.3 IBUs
20.00 g Add at 10 Min - Citra [13.00 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 11 11.3 IBUs

2.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 12 -
5.00 g Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 13 -

Flame Out & Chill To 88C

45.00 g AU Cascade [6.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min Hop 15 4.3 IBUs
45.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min Hop 16 9.0 IBUs
45.00 g Citra [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min Hop 17 9.0 IBUs

American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) 4L Starter

30.00 g Cascade [6.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
30.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
30.00 g Citra [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 21 0.0 IBUs


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.9 %
Bitterness: 50.3 IBUs
Est Color: 20.0 EBC


Mash Steps

53.0 C 15 min
67.5 C 60 min
70.0 C 30 min
77.0 C 15 min

Ferment at 19c
 

carniebrew

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No problem at all, there's a whole thread on AHB about guys doing only cube hopping for their entire IBU count. In terms of IBU's, it doesn't matter when in the boil (or even post boil) you get them, an IBU is an IBU. Obviously you just need less hops at the traditional "bittering addition" time (e.g. 60m) to get the same IBU as you would from your late hop additions.

With most of my pale ale style brews these days I only do a 30m mash and 30m boil, and just use Beersmith to ensure I get the desired number of IBU's out of the shorter boil time.

What are you using to calculate the IBU gained from your flameout/whirlpool hop additions? Most software seems to count everything as zero IBU's after the boil is finished.
 

Parks

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carniebrew said:
No problem at all, there's a whole thread on AHB about guys doing only cube hopping for their entire IBU count. In terms of IBU's, it doesn't matter when in the boil (or even post boil) you get them, an IBU is an IBU. Obviously you just need less hops at the traditional "bittering addition" time (e.g. 60m) to get the same IBU as you would from your late hop additions.

With most of my pale ale style brews these days I only do a 30m mash and 30m boil, and just use Beersmith to ensure I get the desired number of IBU's out of the shorter boil time.
It's also worth noting you do not need "an IBU" for bitterness. You get a heap of bitterness with dry hopping which isn't an isomerised alpha acid.
 

rockeye84

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Beersmith2 has an option for steep/whirlpool, which calulates the ibus depending on time of whirlpool/steep. But is doesn't adjust the boil additions accordingly, as in by adding a 15min hop stand, a 10min boil addition pretty much becomes a 25min addition, IBU wise. Thats why my 25 min addition in reality will be going in with 10min of the boil remaining.

I agree with Parks, I have found my less bitter beers seem more bitter after dry hopping, but most crap you read on the net states that dry hopping adds no bitterness..
 

micblair

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I get bitterness coming from my hop back which is inline with a heat exchange, albeit using 100g of Galaxy flowers on a 25L brew length.
 

Dan Pratt

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carniebrew said:
With most of my pale ale style brews these days I only do a 30m mash and 30m boil, and just use Beersmith to ensure I get the desired number of IBU's out of the shorter boil time.
Hi Carnie, Im glad you posted this about the 30mm / 30mb as im embarking in this tonight with a 3.5% ale, all hopped from 15m through to whirlpool to achieve 25ibu.

slightly OT but did you get full conversion for a 30m mash or are your gravitys coming in a little lower than targeted?

Parks said:
You get a heap of bitterness with dry hopping which isn't an isomerised alpha acid.
Parks,

No isomerization means that the molecular structure has not been broken which is what happens when your hops are added to high temp wort, thus a dry hop only realeases its alpha acids / oils into the beer which come through only as aromatics and flavour, not bitterness or even percieved bitterness. That is my understanding.

Could you please ellaborate how dry hopping adds bitterness to a beer when the alpha acid has not been isomerized?

.

Dan
 

Parks

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Pratty1 said:
Parks,

No isomerization means that the molecular structure has not been broken which is what happens when your hops are added to high temp wort, thus a dry hop only realeases its alpha acids / oils into the beer which come through only as aromatics and flavour, not bitterness or even percieved bitterness. That is my understanding.

Could you please ellaborate how dry hopping adds bitterness to a beer when the alpha acid has not been isomerized?

Dan
Easy. There are other things in hops which are bitter but are not isomerised alpha acids.

The extent of which hops bitter outside of measured IBUs can be easily found if you try making a hop-vodka. BABBs did this as part of a hop experiment (e.g. a few grams of hops in a shot of vodka for 24 hours). The resulting vodka is very bitter but has no IBUs.

I first realised the extent when I made a Bacchus fresh wort IPA which calls for 90gm of dry hop. I tasted both before and after and was really quite shocked at the difference.
 

Dan Pratt

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Parks said:
Easy. There are other things in hops which are bitter but are not isomerised alpha acids.

The extent of which hops bitter outside of measured IBUs can be easily found if you try making a hop-vodka. BABBs did this as part of a hop experiment (e.g. a few grams of hops in a shot of vodka for 24 hours). The resulting vodka is very bitter but has no IBUs.

I first realised the extent when I made a Bacchus fresh wort IPA which calls for 90gm of dry hop. I tasted both before and after and was really quite shocked at the difference.
Interesting.....using vodka would not of been my choice....lol

Which hop oils are the ones that contribute to that bitterness? I ask as some particular hops may be higher in that oil than others, what did you dry hop with?

http://beerlegends.com/hops-varieties

This link shows some pretty good data on the oils within the hops themselves.
 

Parks

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Pratty1 said:
Which hop oils are the ones that contribute to that bitterness? I ask as some particular hops may be higher in that oil than others, what did you dry hop with?
To be honest I have now given you the extent of my knowledge in the subject ;)

They certainly would differ hop-to-hop but can't really tell you much more than that. The following are hops(or blends) that definitely do by my own usage: Fighting Falcon, Zythos, Amarillo, Cascade, Simcoe, Chinook.
 

carniebrew

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We need to differentiate between "bitterness" and "IBU's". It seems most IBU formula creators either can't or won't try to calculate how many IBU's are added by hopping post-boil.

There's some great discussion on this in Stan H's book "Hops", I highly recommend you read it if you get the chance. It talks about "perceived bitterness", which (very basically) is the thing that can make dry-hopped beers appear to be more bitter than their IBU's would suggest. It's mostly your sense of smell at work apparently. They talk about tasting highly hopped beers with your nose clamped shut, which apparently makes a big difference to your perception of how bitter/hoppy the beer is.
 

supertonio

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I reads a really good article in BYO magazine online about 'hop bursting' (which I'm assuming is similar to what you mean) when you add all your hop addition in the last 30-20 mins.

I have just done this on a centennial APA by adding hops around every 5 mins at the 30 min mark. Am almost easy to bottle and the taste from the fermenter is really good. The bitterness is really smooth as opposed to a big whack which you sometimes get from a normal 60 min addition.
 

Oakers

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Look like it will be a great beer. Pretty much my favourite malt bill you've got there. I no chill and do a a lot of beers with just cube hopping which is similar to your whirlpool/hopstand. Give it a go and report back.
 

carniebrew

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Pratty1 said:
Hi Carnie, Im glad you posted this about the 30mm / 30mb as im embarking in this tonight with a 3.5% ale, all hopped from 15m through to whirlpool to achieve 25ibu.

slightly OT but did you get full conversion for a 30m mash or are your gravitys coming in a little lower than targeted?

<snip>
Pretty much full conversion on mine. These have been with Joe White Trad Ale, of course YMMD on other malts.
 

Not For Horses

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Polyphenols contribute to bitterness as well as astringency which can be perceived as bitterness.
 

DeGarre

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I've started doing 20-30 minute hop stands. I add hops at boil-off, then might wait for 15 minutes, then add again for another 15 minutes. When after 30 minutes I start to cool the wort I'm usually at around 85°c.

I perceive extra bitterness compared to no hop stand and no hop stand additions.I think there are so many variables that differ between the brewers and their systems it's practically impossible to do the math so I just say the ibu is say 50+ ibus, + meaning whatever I get from 0 minute onwards additions.

Close enough for cooking for me.
 

Crusty

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Parks said:
It's also worth noting you do not need "an IBU" for bitterness. You get a heap of bitterness with dry hopping which isn't an isomerised alpha acid.
That's interesting
I've never encountered any extra bitterness from dry hopping & according to BeerSmith 2, BrewMate & BeerTools pro, a dry hop addition of even a fairly high Alpha hop, adds no bitterness ( IBU ) to the finished wort. It's unusual that you got that result.
I just don't see how a hop floating in fermentation temperature wort can release any bittering compounds..Maybe something has affected your bitterness but I'm pretty confident that it was not coming from a dry hop addition.
 

Parks

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Crusty, as I mentioned earlier dry hopping doesn't add IBUs, but does add bitterness.

Please try the dry hop experiment I mentioned - soak a couple of pellets in a shot of vodka for 24hrs, strain and drink. You will find the result very bitter.

Now, I only note increases bitterness with fairly high dry hop rates >2gm/L which may be why some don't think it does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

carniebrew

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Crusty said:
<snip>
I just don't see how a hop floating in fermentation temperature wort can release any bittering compounds..Maybe something has affected your bitterness but I'm pretty confident that it was not coming from a dry hop addition.
Bugger the vodka, grab a hop pellet and take a bite, chew it up a bit to let it dissolve in your mouth, and tell me that's not bitter. I just did it (again) with an Amarillo pellet to remind myself. That taste may not be IBU's, but it's definitely bitter.
 

CrookedFingers

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Depending on what kind of day you are having, the vodka may be necessary carnie !!
 

Not For Horses

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IBU is a very specific term. It is a measurement of isomerised alpha acid. It is not the be all and end all of bitterness.
There are polyphenols, isohumulene and isoxanthohumol just to name a few. I think there are around 15 different groups all up.
I'm not sure how much and of what type are released during dry hopping or hop stands but it is important to remember that it is possible to get bitterness independently of IBU.
 
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