Selling Your Beer

[Luek]

So far I've only brewed from kits but I've done a bit of grain brewing research and discovered how everyday items can be used instead of fancy stainless steel etc stuff.
Anyway, I work at a bowling club, and there's quite a bit of useful stuff at my fingertips, i.e. birko, old fridges begging for a thermostat, etc

And it got me wondering, what legal avenues (if any) are there to brewing stuff at work, kegging, then selling over the bar, completely by the book?
Will the club need a special licence? Is there a silly little trademark on homebrew kegs that only allows home use (like lion nathan etc not allowing third party use of theirs)?

If not, I guess I only have to convince the boss.

Edit: hypothetical of course. I'm not gonna get the all clear and start tomorrow.

 

[bum]

So far I've only brewed from kits but I've done a bit of grain brewing research and discovered how everyday items can be used instead of fancy stainless steel etc stuff.
Anyway, I work at a bowling club, and there's quite a bit of useful stuff at my fingertips, i.e. birko, old fridges begging for a thermostat, etc

And it got me wondering, what legal avenues (if any) are there to brewing stuff at work, kegging, then selling over the bar, completely by the book?
Will the club need a special licence? Is there a silly little trademark on homebrew kegs that only allows home use (like lion nathan etc not allowing third party use of theirs)?

If not, I guess I only have to convince the boss.

Edit: hypothetical of course. I'm not gonna get the all clear and start tomorrow.

Tonnes of people are about to reply about how hard it is to go down all those myriad legal avenues required to legally sell the beer you make. And they are all correct.

What no-one ever mentions in these threads, however, is how hard it is to make beer that people will actually buy. Focus on that part first.

 

[Wolfy]

And it got me wondering, what legal avenues (if any) are there to brewing stuff at work, kegging, then selling over the bar, completely by the book?
Will the club need a special licence? Is there a silly little trademark on homebrew kegs that only allows home use (like lion nathan etc not allowing third party use of theirs)?

No silly trade marks, you could sell kit-beer if you could, there are just extensive expensive and prohibitive local council, state and federal laws and taxes to consider first.

 

[Greg.L]

Since your premises already have a license it probably isn't very difficult, so long as you produce the beer on the premises. You would need to check that your current license allows production as well as sale, and comply with food safety laws. If you just went ahead and did it you wouldn't get in too much trouble, getting a liquor license is the hardest bit. The council health inspectors would want to see that everything is kept clean and stored properly.

 

[yum beer]

If you just went ahead and did it you wouldn't get in too much trouble,


There's a fantastic piece of advice.....dont worry about federal laws....Its not that bad in the big house, I suppose you would have some
knowledge to help with the prison brew.


Manufacturer/producers licence to start...equipment that can be completely and accurately monitored....excise....
none of which will be just lying around.

Get hold of bits and pieces from work if you can, but brew and drink at home, let the punters pay top dollar for commercial crap.

 

[Greg.L]

I don't imagine there would be much exise on a few batches of home brew, - the guy already has a license to sell beer (or his boss does). The hardest thing would be convincing the boss it is worth the effort. The kitchens are already approved for food production, they don't worry too much about accurate measures. (some of the boutique wineries I have seen have very little in the way of decent equipment). But home brew doesn't have a good reputation in the community, might be hard to convince conservative bowling club types you won't be poisoning them.

 

[Ross]

I don't imagine there would be much exise on a few batches of home brew, - the guy already has a license to sell beer (or his boss does). The hardest thing would be convincing the boss it is worth the effort. The kitchens are already approved for food production, they don't worry too much about accurate measures. (some of the boutique wineries I have seen have very little in the way of decent equipment). But home brew doesn't have a good reputation in the community, might be hard to convince conservative bowling club types you won't be poisoning them.

Greg.L

Sorry, I'm sure you're giving this advice with all good intentions, but you obviously have little knowledge on what's required to produce & sell beer. Luek, honestly, nice idea, but forget it.


Cheers Ross

 

[.DJ.]

I don't imagine there would be much exise on a few batches of home brew, - the guy already has a license to sell beer (or his boss does). The hardest thing would be convincing the boss it is worth the effort. The kitchens are already approved for food production, they don't worry too much about accurate measures. (some of the boutique wineries I have seen have very little in the way of decent equipment). But home brew doesn't have a good reputation in the community, might be hard to convince conservative bowling club types you won't be poisoning them.

Seriously....

Just stop.

 

[bignath]

Since your premises already have a license it probably isn't very difficult, so long as you produce the beer on the premises. You would need to check that your current license allows production as well as sale, and comply with food safety laws. If you just went ahead and did it you wouldn't get in too much trouble, getting a liquor license is the hardest bit. The council health inspectors would want to see that everything is kept clean and stored properly.

That's the most **** piece of "advice" i've read on here in a long time.

Seriously, there are so many points in the above short sentence that are just plain, flat out incorrect it's embarrasing.

If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't give advice on a topic that can land someone is some real serious **** and **** up their livelihood.

There are huge ramifications if you get caught selling beer that has been brewed rather than purchased by the seller without the proper permits, tax requirements and inspectors. Way too much red tap than what you obviously realise.

I am in the process of reading up all about this sort of stuff as a group i'm involved with are considering a business venture incorporating a microbrewery - approx. 1000lt batches.

It's a lot of stuff to get through, otherwise we'd all be doing it.

 

[JaseH]

Sell peanuts for $10 a bowl - but it comes with 2 free beers

 

[Greg.L]

You guys are pretty much in awe of "the man". First, paying your taxes is pretty easy, the gvt likes to take money off of people. Second, it is different in different states, so if you don't know the situation in NSW you shouldn't comment.
There are a lot of people flouting the licensing rules in NSW. There is virtually no enforcement, but you have to have all your signage in order. The main authority now is the council, and they will just tell you to stop, if someone complains. There is zero interest in someone selling a bit of homebrew in a bowlo. Like any business you would have to keep records and pay your taxes.
I have read a lot of crap advice on AHB, if mine is the worst ever I am quite flattered.

 

[Luek]

Well that sucks.

I'd like to borrow a few things but my boss is a bit unpredictable. Will ask down the track eventually.

P.s. it's a bowling club but punters wouldn't be the demographic - it would be all the Sydney business types that blow through while visiting vineyards who actively ask to try local products.
P.p.s. just remembered we have a toohey's contract that limits our tap beers to theirs only (plus vb) which would cause pain I assume.

 

[Ross]

You guys are pretty much in awe of "the man". First, paying your taxes is pretty easy, the gvt likes to take money off of people. Second, it is different in different states, so if you don't know the situation in NSW you shouldn't comment.
There are a lot of people flouting the licensing rules in NSW. There is virtually no enforcement, but you have to have all your signage in order. The main authority now is the council, and they will just tell you to stop, if someone complains. There is zero interest in someone selling a bit of homebrew in a bowlo. Like any business you would have to keep records and pay your taxes.
I have read a lot of crap advice on AHB, if mine is the worst ever I am quite flattered.

From reading your profile you sound like an educated man who is actually involved in commercial beverage production, be it wine & cider, not beer.
Therefore I cannot beleive the advice you are giving above!!! Just because something maybe poorly policed, does not give you the right to flout the laws, & have no shadow of doubt, you do risk very high penalties.

Regards Ross

 

[petesbrew]

Most people going to bowlo's are there for a cheap feed & new/draught/vb (or shandy), and are pretty much set in their ways.
You don't exactly associate the places with craft beer.
By all means go for it if you could be arsed with the hassle, but don't expect them to spend a session on it while they flutter their wage on the pokies.

 

[eviljesus]

How about some actual, referencable info here?

ATO Excise Application will be needed Australia wide for anything alcohol related. More can be found on the ATO website. This is the application form, so you can see a bit about what they are asking.
http://www.ato.gov.au/content/downloads/bu...t5906042010.pdf


This one is only for QLD, so not applicable to you, but I'd say this would be the same sort of info. From what I gather QLD is probably the worst place to try and do this, so it might be a bit easier in NSW. Specifically parts A & F. Google specifically for the NSW legislation and application.
http://www.olgr.qld.gov.au/resources/liquo...F1AppLiqLic.pdf

Alot of hoops to jump through but it most certainly can be done. You would need to have a proper setup though. They wouldn't let you get away with a half-assed setup like many use for homebrewing. This gear is quite expensive to get and setup. You would also need to be doing large quantities to make it worth your while.

Dodging the rules is a downright bad idea and can/will land you in some serious ****. All you need is the one guy that takes it seriously (clearly Greg has had the lax guys).

EDIT: Speeeling.

 

[bigfridge]

Well that sucks.

I'd like to borrow a few things but my boss is a bit unpredictable. Will ask down the track eventually.

P.s. it's a bowling club but punters wouldn't be the demographic - it would be all the Sydney business types that blow through while visiting vineyards who actively ask to try local products.
P.p.s. just remembered we have a toohey's contract that limits our tap beers to theirs only (plus vb) which would cause pain I assume.

I was going to report this thread to the mods as the advice from most of the posters is promoting illegal activities and hence violates the site terms.

But then I thought that it would be better to correct the horrendous information put forward by most of the replies.

Firstly, /// & I have done this so this is the ACTUAL procedure you will need to follow - it involves gaining approval from all 3 levels of government ie Federal, State and the local council.

1. You will need to submit a DA to the council to install a BREWERY - this does incorporate the same food standards that apply to the existing kitchen, but does have a LOT of additional requirements. For an example you will need a statement of environmental effects produced by a suitably qualified consultant, trade waste disposal plan, traffic and parking study and so on.

2. The bowlo is currently licensed to SELL alcohol - not PRODUCE it. You will need to apply to the licensing court to reduce the currently licensed area to free up some space and then apply for a producers license. You will then need to make multiple appearances before the licensing court before your producers license is granted. At these court appearances you will need to convince the court that you have complied with the requirements of NSW OLGR ie advertising plan, social impact studies, detailed site plan and of course you will have your DA and Occupational Certificate approved by the Council.

3. Finally, you can now apply to the ATO for the Excise License. You will see the amount of detail required from the application form already posted. As an example it will cost you at least $2,000 to get each tank calibrated for volume, and you will all need to pass criminal checks to prove that you are a suitable person to hold a license.

The above process will take at least a year to complete and cost a $50,000 to $100,000 depending on how much you can do yourself.

Once you are ALLOWED to make beer for sale, you will have to make beer that you can SELL. This requires a detailled knowledge of beer styles, recipe formulation, ingredient selection not to mention the actual process and quality control of producing beer.

If you are lucky to avoid detection you may get away with it, but if you do get caught the state government would just love to find a scapegoat to prove that they are tough on alcohol fueled social problems. Once you and your boss have been dragged through the NSW courts, the Feds can't avoid noticing you and would make a 'test case' out of the bootleggers and the bowling club will probably lose its license to sell alcohol as having criminal convictions against the office holders will invalidate the license conditions.

If you do manage to avoid jail terms, you won't be able to work in the industry again due to your criminal record.

As Ross wisely said - forget it.

But it is doable if you have a syndicate with passion, energy, time and most importantly funds available.

The alternative is to go the Contract Brewing route where you pay lets say $200 per keg to get your beer brewed at a licensed brewery and then you only have to convince the club to pay more for your beer than they do for VB.

 

[eviljesus]

I was going to report this thread to the mods as the advice from most of the posters is promoting illegal activities and hence violates the site terms.

But then I thought that it would be better to correct the horrendous information put forward by most of the replies.

Firstly, /// & I have done this so this is the ACTUAL procedure you will need to follow - it involves gaining approval from all 3 levels of government ie Federal, State and the local council.

1. You will need to submit a DA to the council to install a BREWERY - this does incorporate the same food standards that apply to the existing kitchen, but does have a LOT of additional requirements. For an example you will need a statement of environmental effects produced by a suitably qualified consultant, trade waste disposal plan, traffic and parking study and so on.

2. The bowlo is currently licensed to SELL alcohol - not PRODUCE it. You will need to apply to the licensing court to reduce the currently licensed area to free up some space and then apply for a producers license. You will then need to make multiple appearances before the licensing court before your producers license is granted. At these court appearances you will need to convince the court that you have complied with the requirements of NSW OLGR ie advertising plan, social impact studies, detailed site plan and of course you will have your DA and Occupational Certificate approved by the Council.

3. Finally, you can now apply to the ATO for the Excise License. You will see the amount of detail required from the application form already posted. As an example it will cost you at least $2,000 to get each tank calibrated for volume, and you will all need to pass criminal checks to prove that you are a suitable person to hold a license.

The above process will take at least a year to complete and cost a $50,000 to $100,000 depending on how much you can do yourself.

Once you are ALLOWED to make beer for sale, you will have to make beer that you can SELL. This requires a detailled knowledge of beer styles, recipe formulation, ingredient selection not to mention the actual process and quality control of producing beer.

If you are lucky to avoid detection you may get away with it, but if you do get caught the state government would just love to find a scapegoat to prove that they are tough on alcohol fueled social problems. Once you and your boss have been dragged through the NSW courts, the Feds can't avoid noticing you and would make a 'test case' out of the bootleggers and the bowling club will probably lose its license to sell alcohol as having criminal convictions against the office holders will invalidate the license conditions.

If you do manage to avoid jail terms, you won't be able to work in the industry again due to your criminal record.

As Ross wisely said - forget it.

But it is doable if you have a syndicate with passion, energy, time and most importantly funds available.

The alternative is to go the Contract Brewing route where you pay lets say $200 per keg to get your beer brewed at a licensed brewery and then you only have to convince the club to pay more for your beer than they do for VB.

Great post with straight forward, legit info not just heresay.

Interesting on the contract brewing route. That never even struck me as an option.

 

[winkle]

Great post with straight forward, legit info not just heresay.

Interesting on the contract brewing route. That never even struck me as an option.

Definately the best/cheapest way to start out. I've been giving it some serious thought :icon_cheers: .

 

[Phoney]

Good response big fridge! Somebody should put that into a wiki, as this question pops up every 6 months or so.

 

[bigfridge]

For those interested, here is the NSW application form.

View attachment L_F_PWL.pdf