Seeking natural source of yeast nutrient

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TimT

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I may have mentioned this before, but I'm sure someone on this site who reads this must know the answer to my question.

I'm seeking a natural source of yeast nutrient - not just dead yeast cells (that one's easy - chuck some old yeast in the boil). I'm also wanting a natural source of free amino nitrate or FAN, which apparently yeast loves.

It is a mite irritating having to buy a crapload of additives for what is essentially a simple process of fermentation when I'm sure there must be something in the kitchen providing those nutrients already.

My theories about possible natural sources of yeast nutrient:

- raisins, currants, sultanas
- fruit in general (yeast often live on them)
- barley and barley malt
- Irish moss, agar

Am I on the right track here, folks?

EDIT: Removed 'ammonia', replaced with 'amino'.
 
Pretty sure you are not looking for ammonium nitrate. Thats what I use at work mixed with diesel to make things explode. What you are looking for is free amino nitrogen. Cant help you with where to get it. I thought yeast nutrient was mainly zinc.
 
I think the key would be getting the right stuff in there without any extras, and then getting the right amounts.

Keen to hear if anyone does have any good info on it.
 
What is wrong with the prepared yeast nutrient by wyeast and others? They will give you your nitrates and other trace elements for healthy fermentation. The issue with a lot of your suggested sources as they are club med for wild yeast, which may not be killed off in the boil and may also impart flavours you're not after or if you use too much fruit and boil it you can run into clarity issues as the boil draws out the pectins.

IMHO the commercial nutrient preparations are the way to go (unless you have an allergy or are trying to make certified organic beer). Surely it isn't that much hassle to buy a small tube of nutrient and add 1/2 a teaspoon to each boil or yeast starter?

JD
 
It is a mite irritating having to buy a crapload of additives for what is essentially a simple process of fermentation when I'm sure there must be something in the kitchen providing those nutrients already.

Really?? More irritating than say buying malt, hops or yeast, which come from the same shop?

Keep in mind also that wort fermentation does not require yeast nutrient. We put nutrients in to get the best performance from yeast that we can, so there isn't going to be a 'natural' source of yeast nutrient (for brewing purposes) per se. Also keep in mind that the production of beer is not a 'natural' process ( although fermentation is), therefore 'natural' beers and wine for that matter is a misnomer in my opinion.
 
What? I think the boil pretty much kills everything, definitely yeast.

Correction: I always get the name wrong. It's free AMINO nitrogen (just looked it up).

I don't mind non-organic stuff - just annoys me having to keep buying small additives. If you can do the trick, say, by throwing in sultanas to the boil, why wouldn't you? My understanding is the yeast only neds a small amount and you would be able to do it in quantities that wouldn't compromise the quality of the final brew.

I have a theory that the pre-Reinheitsgebot brews - medieval gruits, etc that involved lots of herbs and additives - were popular not only because of the flavour and quality of the final brew, but because the amount of herbs and fruit added gave the yeast plenty of nutrient, and therefore tended to ferment more efficiently.
 
I HAVE heard of other brewers using Vegemite. That's not 'organic' of course but it is in most Australian kitchens. Have even heard of the addition of odd ingredients like, say, a raw steak.... (Old time recommendation - not going to try that one). I also remember someone on AHB - can't remember who - saying that barley malt is quite a rich environment anyway and has no need for nutrient.
 
if you're going down that route, i reckon it'd be more fun to source/create/culture/discover your own yeast!

try the vegemite and report back. i'd be keen to hear how it turns out.
 
Truth be told yeast nutrient may be more of an issue for my meads than my beers. Not sure, since our honey is just backyard, and we remove it from the honeycomb by the crush-and-strain method - ie, a lot of trace elements (wax, propolis, the odd dead bee part) probably get in there as well, which may provide nutrient that would otherwise be lacking.

I'll keep a close eye on the meads as they ferment, may be able to see whether the addition of fruits adds an extra vigour to the yeast :)
 
TimT said:
Truth be told yeast nutrient may be more of an issue for my meads than my beers. Not sure, since our honey is just backyard, and we remove it from the honeycomb by the crush-and-strain method - ie, a lot of trace elements (wax, propolis, the odd dead bee part) probably get in there as well, which may provide nutrient that would otherwise be lacking.

I'll keep a close eye on the meads as they ferment, may be able to see whether the addition of fruits adds an extra vigour to the yeast :)
Meads and ciders are lacking in yeast nutrients, not so much beer, dead yeast is a natural source as you said. The other easily obtainable natural source is raisins, NOT sultanas or currants. Sultanas are treated with something (I don't know what) to give them the colour and most commercial currants aren't dried grapes, they're berries. When you use raisins a good handfull (20-25 count ) per 5 litres and chop them to expose the inner flesh.
 
Thanks for advice, Superstock!

The other easily obtainable natural source is raisins, NOT sultanas or currants. Sultanas are treated with something (I don't know what) to give them the colour

Maybe not organic sultanas though? I've seen sultanas used in ginger beer starter recipes, which often also recommend organic sultanas.
 
If raisins and (maybe) organic sultanas then I suspect some other fruit too would be - they're a very rich environment after all, and discussions about brewing with apples, for instance, frequently mention wild yeasts. But from the sounds of it sultanas would be the best. So hard to get definite information on this though - very grateful for the response!
 
I'm confused...sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't you talking about this stuff? http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/products/category/search/8YEAST+NUTWY1.5B



a blend of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, free amino nitrogen compounds, zinc, phosphates, and other trace elements beneficial for rapid and complete, fermentation
It goes in the boil, 10 minutes before the end. The nutrients in it don't get 'killed'. Mind you if you're that worried, from what I understand you can put this straight into the fermenter before pitching your yeast, you only boil it to make sure it's sterilised. (I bought a Morgans kit ginger beer recently that came with a pack of yeast nutrient under the lid, separate from the yeast, it said to chuck it straight into the FV).

The wyeast stuff above needs only 1/2 teaspoon in a ~20l batch, so it costs like 20c a time. And you can buy it in 2lb containers instead of a 1.5oz test tube if you want to save even more (less than half the price I think).
 
Don't have that brand Carniebrew, but have used two other brands - one was a mix of dead yeast cells and free amino nitrogen, the other is just free amino nitrogen. No, I wasn't referring to that when I was saying 'the boil pretty much kills everything' - just the suggestion by JDW81 that wild yeast on raisins, etc, might not get killed in the boil. I know some microorganisms can be quite heat tolerant, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand they don't interfere with a clean beer ferment.
 
I know it's not strictly a "nutrient" for the yeast, but have you tried or considered adding a minute amount of olive oil?

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?tab=ww&ei=6afLUovlJ8WBlQXb8oHgBw&ved=0CBUQ1S4#q=olive+oil+yeast+starter

Seems to be lots of homebrewers claiming that it improves fermentaion in one way or another, meets your criteria for being a readily accessibly, common ingredient. The biggest issue I see with it is being able to accurately measure a small enough quantity of it for ~ 20L of wort.
 
TimT said:
Don't have that brand Carniebrew, but have used two other brands - one was a mix of dead yeast cells and free amino nitrogen, the other is just free amino nitrogen. No, I wasn't referring to that when I was saying 'the boil pretty much kills everything' - just the suggestion by JDW81 that wild yeast on raisins, etc, might not get killed in the boil. I know some microorganisms can be quite heat tolerant, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand they don't interfere with a clean beer ferment.
Cool, so does the wyeast yeast nutrient solve your problem?
 
Modern commercial supermarket raisins aren't a problem, they are virtually sterile when packed. Commercial sultanas are treated as I have said, and I believe that treatment can be a problem. On the other hand, organic sultanas may have been sun dried and could have aquired some air borne organisms just waiting to erupt.
The way it was explained to me--------the grape is the perfect enviroment for the yeast, it is a wonderful packet with just the right amount of sugars and nutrients and water and a skin that can nurture the yeast until the skin ruptures and the yeast can gain access.
With the dried versions all man has done is removed the water, which also made the skin tougher.
Why does every thing have to be boiled? Just chop the raisins and throw them into the fermenter.
 
As far as I understand sufficient FAN should be provided from malt in an AG brew. If you are adjusting water with calcium salts (which are naturally occuring chemicals although I don't know how 'natural' the process is of isolating them and putting them in a little bag), then the other main nutrient that may be deficient is zinc which you can buy again as salts, although less readily. Does mean buying several little baggies which doesn't solve your issue but if you can find foodstuffs containing zinc and calcium and somehow translate that to a desired amount without horrible flavour results, you might be on the path you want to be on. That last part is totally hypothetical.

Meat has been added to various beverages as a source of nitrogen - adding red meat or chicken was an old remedy for stalled ferments. I'd avoid that personally.

Find out what nutrients you actually want then investigate more natural sources of them would be my bet (or add in some salts - seasoning, preserving and salting food has historical origins and precedent).

Or try without nutrient at all - while you will miss zinc, see what the actual effect is. If you sufficiently aerate the wort, don't mash all over the place, pitch healthy sufficient yeast, etc then nutrient might be unnecessary. I add it as a safeguard not because my beers were shit without it.

Cider and mead etc are a different story.
 
I have used old yeast in the boil for adding extra zinc without any problems. I highly recommend it.

As for FAN, all grain brews shouldn't have any problems, if so, you need to look at the malt you are using. Try getting the malt specs from your HB shop or grain supplier. Should be able to give them to you if you buy a whole sack.

Edit: +1 manticle
 
All very helpful suggestions, thanks.

Find out what nutrients you actually want then investigate more natural sources of them would be my bet (or add in some salts - seasoning, preserving and salting food has historical origins and precedent).

I have thought of this, though one difficulty is a lot of people tend not to distinguish between compounds that contain certain elements, and the elements themselves - and just refer to those elements by way of shorthand. Similar to my very embarassing mistake, in which I refer to 'free ammonia nitrogen' and not 'free amino nitrogen'. So the popular literature - by which I mean mostly websites, which I am limited to not being a scientific expert myself - can be confused and confusing about such subjects. Certainly, apart from brewing websites, 'free amino nitrogen' doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on the web. This conversation, however, is very very helpful.
 

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