Salt Additons

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PH can only creep up when you sparge with alkaline water. Soft water (including RO) will not extract tannins from a sparge, its just not going to happen.

Yes thats been my understanding also., but what if the pure water absorbs stuff that make the PH creep up?

Its also good to remember that soft water can also be alkaline.
 
Yes thats been my understanding also., but what if the pure water absorbs stuff that make the PH creep up?

Its also good to remember that soft water can also be alkaline.

I dont buy that RO water can absorb anything that regular soft & low alkalinity water can't. Would need a chemical explanation for that to understand it. I had my RO water tested in America, and it wasnt even fully cleansed in 2 categories. It had 16ppm Cl and 4ppm Na. But thats because it originally had over 200ppm Cl and and about 125ppm Na. A lot to filter out! I just factor it into my calcs.

Your right, technically soft water is low in calcium and magnesium only. I'm referring to water that is soft and low in alkalinity.

This stuff is great fun isnt it! :icon_cheers:
 
Yeah my first couple of AG were shit because i just used my water straight up.
Very astringent and cloudy muting aromas and flavours, prob also not the happiest environment for the yeast either.

The more you look into brewing the deeper the hole seems to get , there is always something you can understand better and tweak.
 
I always have sparged and mashed with the same profile built from RO water. Today I added all the salts in the mash as I read they dissolve better with the malt, then just sparged with RO water with 1ml of lactic to 33 litres of RO water. The last couple of brews there was no issue with astringency however I thought in light of my readings I would try it this way. Anyways I took a reading of the sparge water in the HLT with my Hanna HI 98128 and it said the ph was ~4.4! Surely that can't be right, can it? Any input from the scientific types would be appreciated. Cheers.
 
I always have sparged and mashed with the same profile built from RO water. Today I added all the salts in the mash as I read they dissolve better with the malt, then just sparged with RO water with 1ml of lactic to 33 litres of RO water. The last couple of brews there was no issue with astringency however I thought in light of my readings I would try it this way. Anyways I took a reading of the sparge water in the HLT with my Hanna HI 98128 and it said the ph was ~4.4! Surely that can't be right, can it? Any input from the scientific types would be appreciated. Cheers.


It turns out that your pH observation is almost perfectly correct. With the very low alkalinity of RO water (typically under 20 ppm as CaCO3), it doesn't take much acid to cause the pH to drop like a rock. Even the Sparge Acidification Calculator in Bru'n Water confirms the result. Using an alkalinity of 13 ppm, 33L of water and 1ml of 88% lactic is predicted to produce a pH of 4.3.

Sparge water pH is not really the target a brewer should aim for. Alkalinity is the more appropriate target. I recommend bringing sparging water alkalinity to under 25 ppm to avoid astringency problems. With alkalinity as the controlling variable in mashing, it turns out that the final pH of the sparging water that a brewer should use will vary based on the starting alkalinity of the water. In the case of very low alkalinity water like RO water, the pH to achieve an appropriately low alkalinity may be 6. Whereas, a very alkaline water might need to be acidified to bring the pH to somewhere around the low 5's to get the alkalinity low enough. As Neal found, he didn't need to acidify his sparging water at all.

There is only one ion that has extra utility in the mash, calcium. Beside its effect on mash pH (along with Mg), it also precipitates oxalate which forms beerstone. While you can add minerals directly to the kettle to account for not adding minerals to the sparging water, I suggest that providing a minimum calcium concentration of 40 ppm in the sparging water should help reduce oxalates in the beer. Other than that, I suggest that adding salts to the mashing or sparging water can be optional. Those salts can sometimes be added directly to the kettle to produce a desired water profile. The most important factor is making sure that the mash pH falls into a desirable range. A program like Bru'n Water can help guide a brewer to what and when to add salts to their brew.

Enjoy!
 
It turns out that your pH observation is almost perfectly correct. With the very low alkalinity of RO water (typically under 20 ppm as CaCO3), it doesn't take much acid to cause the pH to drop like a rock. Even the Sparge Acidification Calculator in Bru'n Water confirms the result. Using an alkalinity of 13 ppm, 33L of water and 1ml of 88% lactic is predicted to produce a pH of 4.3.

Sparge water pH is not really the target a brewer should aim for. Alkalinity is the more appropriate target. I recommend bringing sparging water alkalinity to under 25 ppm to avoid astringency problems. With alkalinity as the controlling variable in mashing, it turns out that the final pH of the sparging water that a brewer should use will vary based on the starting alkalinity of the water. In the case of very low alkalinity water like RO water, the pH to achieve an appropriately low alkalinity may be 6. Whereas, a very alkaline water might need to be acidified to bring the pH to somewhere around the low 5's to get the alkalinity low enough. As Neal found, he didn't need to acidify his sparging water at all.

There is only one ion that has extra utility in the mash, calcium. Beside its effect on mash pH (along with Mg), it also precipitates oxalate which forms beerstone. While you can add minerals directly to the kettle to account for not adding minerals to the sparging water, I suggest that providing a minimum calcium concentration of 40 ppm in the sparging water should help reduce oxalates in the beer. Other than that, I suggest that adding salts to the mashing or sparging water can be optional. Those salts can sometimes be added directly to the kettle to produce a desired water profile. The most important factor is making sure that the mash pH falls into a desirable range. A program like Bru'n Water can help guide a brewer to what and when to add salts to their brew.

Enjoy!

Welcome to the forum Martin
I have had great time trying to get my head around your spreadsheet. I have a problem with it as I use a Mac, and a program called Numbers instead of Excel. The drop down boxes don't work so I can't change my grain types on the Mash Acidification page :(
 
Welcome to the forum Martin
I have had great time trying to get my head around your spreadsheet. I have a problem with it as I use a Mac, and a program called Numbers instead of Excel. The drop down boxes don't work so I can't change my grain types on the Mash Acidification page :(

Have you tried the freeware LibreOffice software? I found it to work well on a PC, but I haven't tried it on a Mac.

Thanks for the welcome!
 
Have read that Brun page before and I'd like to say it's very comprehensive and well laid out/explained.

I tried to write a similar document earlier in the year for a BJCP study group here in Melbourne which is now in the articles section but is a work in progress (still needs in text referencing to be completed, tables and figures/illustrations to be added and some reconfiguration for clarity and flow) and it's not an easy task trying to cram all the variables into a document and still try and keep it simple and logical.

I think yours does that admirably.
 
Have you tried the freeware LibreOffice software? I found it to work well on a PC, but I haven't tried it on a Mac.

I haven't tried LibreOffice before. I just tried your spreadsheet on my wife's Mac as she has Excel, And it works fine. Looks like I'll just have to load Excel onto my computer when I get a chance. I was getting some wacky results as I was only inputting grain colour and not what type of grain.
Thanks for a great in depth spreadsheet with a lot of useful information :icon_chickcheers: .
 

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