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Saison Recipe Critique

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fletcher

bibo ergo sum
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hey all,

i decided to try my hand at a BIAB saison to take advantage of the weather (even though i've never tasted one, from memory). i should probably do that first, but in searching for some recipes, came upon this one which actually looks like a really interesting tasting beer so i thought, why not?

the recipe is: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=208

i shuffled a few hops around with what i have at home at the moment, but if anyone would be so kind, could you critique the hell out of it for me? any suggestions/changes/additions/subtractions are very welcome (just please don't be mean as i'm still learning). i also have amarillo and could source other ingredients like spices and/or whatever else you think might be nice or work. i know it's all down to personal taste, but this is experimental so the simpler the better i'd say; then i can move on from there and make additions with newer batches.

Simple Saison
Saison

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.000
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.054 (P): 13.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014 (P): 3.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.31 %
Colour (SRM): 5.0 (EBC): 9.9
Bitterness (IBU): 29.4 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.500 kg Pilsner (70%)
1.000 kg Munich I (20%)
0.500 kg Wheat Malt (10%)

Hop Bill
----------------
25.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)
10.0 g Cascade Pellet (6% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.5 g/L)
5.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
0.5 g Whirlfloc Tablet @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 65C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 22C with WLP565 - Belgian Saison I


Recipe Generated with BrewMate


Thanks!
 

geneabovill

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I don't think the cascade is to style. A Saison is generally lightly hopped 18IBU or so, IIRC, using hops available in Belgium - noble hops.

The cascade may well be a good addition to the beer, and I've used it in a Boh Pils before, but the point of a Saison is to allow the yeast character to come forward, and the cascade may overpower it.

Also, a traditional Saison is lower alcohol - around 2.5-3%.
 

NewtownClown

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From BJCP
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.048 1.065
IBUs: 20 35 FG: 1.002 1.012
SRM: 5 14 ABV: 5 7%

Varying strength examples exist (table beers of about 5% strength, typical export beers of about 6.5%, and stronger versions of 8%+). Strong versions (6.5%-9.5%) and darker versions (copper to dark brown/black) should be entered as Belgian Specialty Ales (16E). Sweetness decreases and spice, hop and sour character increases with strength. Herb and spice additions often reflect the indigenous varieties available at the brewery. High carbonation and extreme attenuation (85-95%) helps bring out the many flavors and to increase the perception of a dry finish. All of these beers share somewhat higher levels of acidity than other Belgian styles while the optional sour flavor is often a variable house character of a particular brewery.
 

NewtownClown

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Fletch
Your recipe doesn't look like it will finish dry enough. I would add some simple sugar, even up to 15%, and mash 64c.
I have used WLP565 for saisons and found it best to start low and let it rise to 25/27c. You really want high attentuation. Some people have even used champagne yeast to finish it off.
A little CaraMunich (50grams) wouldn't hurt...
Leave out the cascade and 5 min addition but consider 20 g Hallertauer at flameout...

my 2c
 

Jace89

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As mentioned above don't be afraid of adding some sugar, I'd start around the 5-10% range possibly.

I wouldn't concern myself with style guides. Saisons are one of those beers you can have success doing anything really. Hop it like a IPA if you want to. Just keep in mind on what type/taste you want your Saison to have.
 

fletcher

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thanks guys. I'll ditch the cascade. possibly single hop with Hallertau? I'll look to add some sugar too. I'll edit it this arvo after work and re-post :) and lower abv also. thanks!
 

manticle

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Taste a Temple Saison or a Saison Dupont or a La Sirene if you can find it.

See what the benchmarks taste like then work from there.

If you use a yeast like 3711 and mash below 65, you will have no trouble getting it dry enough - no real need for sugar.

As for hoppy/not hoppy etc there is historically a fair bit of variation including higher IBU levels and even dry hopping. While historically lower in gravity, many modern versions are much stronger so there's plenty of room to play. I would drop the cascade at least for your first one. Hallertauer is a good addition though.

I like a really simple grain bill (mainly pils with a touch of wheat) and a step mash for mine but low end single infusion should be fine.
 

geneabovill

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I'm with Manticle, except I add around 3% acidulated (as I find it finished dryer) and 5% rauchmalz (because I like to).
 

doon

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i used tonys saision recipe but added biscuit to it, and hopped it with cascade and b sazz. Fermented with 3711 and it tastes great. This yeast always finishes dry when mashed at 64 not a lot of hop character comes through just the lovely yeasty esters
 

JDW81

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Fletch,

Jump on the brewing network site and have a listen to Jamil's podcast on saison, found here: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jam...w/search/saison
They are all on iTunes as well.

It gives you a lot of good background information on the style, recipes, mashing regimes and fermentation temperatures.

FWIW I like a simple gain bill, simple hop addition (something like hallertau or saaz) and use wyeast 3724 fermented at 30 degrees. 3724 gives the most amazing flavours (the last one I made had massive peach aromas).

Check out the podcast tho, the Jamil show is one of my first stops when I'm looking at brewing a new style for me.

Cheers,

JD
 

fletcher

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thanks again everyone for your help with this one. JD that podcast is awesome; i'll definitely check that out before looking at other styles from now on. manticle, am going to check out those saisons to get an idea of style before i go for it, but all in all, this is probably what i'll make (forgot i had saaz lying around too). as it's experimental, i halved the size and the grain bill, and also swapped some hops around. added the flameout saaz (thanks newtownclown). decided on the 3711 over the 3724 after reading about its tastes and qualities...sounded intriguing.

now all i have to do is wait for my others to finish fermenting, although in this heat, it really could just sit in my hot kitchen!


Simple Saison (Met a Pieman)
Saison

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 10.0
Total Grain (kg): 1.950
Total Hops (g): 18.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.042 (P): 10.5
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.13 %
Colour (SRM): 3.0 (EBC): 6.0
Bitterness (IBU): 22.5 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
1.700 kg Pilsner (87.18%)
0.250 kg Wheat Malt (12.82%)

Hop Bill
----------------
8.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.8 g/L)
5.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.5 g/L)
5.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (0.5 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
0.3 g Whirlfloc Tablet @ 10 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 64C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 27C with Wyeast 3711 - French Saison


Recipe Generated with BrewMate
 

manticle

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Looks good. My saisons are summertime fermented at ambient temps. 3711 I start cooler and then leave to the mercies - belgian saison loves the heat.
Brew and get some commercial examples then try some new world/us hops like cascade and see what you reckon.
 

fletcher

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quick Q

because i'll be bottling this, what temps do i bottle/carb it at? 18-25 like i usually do for carbing ales? is it good to carb it then crash chill/keep in fridge like i have my other brews thus far?
 

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