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S-23 2 Packs Or 1 And A Starter?

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iralosavic

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As ascertained in another thread, I'm going to use s-23 for the Dortmunder I'm making on the weekend. My LHBS sells it for around $7 per pack, so if I can get the job done with one pack, I'd prefer to - especially after burning my last batch ><

I'm fermenting 20L and prefer to pitch at fermenting temperature (12c) and I always rehydrate first. Will one pack be sufficient or should I rehydrate and then put it on the stirplate in 500ml to 1L?

Cheers
 

Midnight Brew

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I've never brewed lagers before but I recall it used twice the yeast. SO you could buy two packs rehydrate and pitch or 1 pack rehyrdate and into a starter. Im not sure how long it would take in a starter or temps or how many cells you will end up with but other brewers would be more helpful for this. Cheers
 

Nick JD

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If you own a stirplate, do some reading about starters!
 

seemax

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1 packet at 12C honestly wont be enough for good clean ferment

if you really want to save the $7 i would suggest pitching at maybe 18C then ramping it down to 12C over a day or two

why not buy 2 packets and collect some yeast from the cake into some bottles... then you can do 1 or 2 lagers in the future to spread the cost over multiple brews

keep in mind that 20L (3 slabs) of decent lager is pricey !
 

Steve@PMF82

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There seems to be more and more of these threads lately, there was one last night and wolfy gave a big helpful spiel on the same subject.

As others have said you will need a lot more than one packet if you want to pitch cold.

A good cheat instead of stuffing around with starters and possibly hurting your dry yeast in the process.
Go to woolies and grab a tin of saunders malt extract, it has the same gravity potential as LDME should give you gravity of 1035 - 1038 made up to 10L about $7 last time i got it.

Boil it up for a few minutes, total 10L volume, chill and put in small fermenter or sealed bucket and sprinkle your one pack of dry yeast on it at 20 degrees, let it ferment out, chill to 12 degrees, then use the slurry in your intended batch, you may be pleasantly surprised by the results....
 

iralosavic

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I haven't been able to get my stir plate to stir anything above 1L - I'm still working on it. I've read a fair bit on the subject - but all relevant to liquid yeasts. I usually use s189 from CB and pitch both rehydrated packets (24g total) at 12c and that works a treat.

So it's not recommended to rehydrate and grow a dried yeast in a small starter? I have fresh wort that I froze for such occasions...

Beer4U: thanks for the suggestion, however, financially speaking (unless I were collecting, washing and storing surpless slurry) there is no difference in the cost compared with starting with two packs of s23.

seemax: thanks for the ideas. I've got a s189 slurry to practice my collection and rinsing techniques on. I just need to procure a few jam/preserving jars as all I've got free at present are a couple of low form beakers (400ml and 800ml).
 

Truman42

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I haven't been able to get my stir plate to stir anything above 1L - I'm still working on it.
Is that because it throws the stirbar?

I had the same problem until I reduced the power supply from 12 volt to 9 volt. Now it stirs 2 litres no problems at all. It was spinning too fast at 12 volts even when turned down to the lowest speed setting.
 

Wolfy

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As ascertained in another thread, I'm going to use s-23 for the Dortmunder I'm making on the weekend. My LHBS sells it for around $7 per pack, so if I can get the job done with one pack, I'd prefer to - especially after burning my last batch ><

I'm fermenting 20L and prefer to pitch at fermenting temperature (12c) and I always rehydrate first. Will one pack be sufficient or should I rehydrate and then put it on the stirplate in 500ml to 1L?
Without knowing the gravity or the volume of your batch of beer it is impossible to even guess at the 'most correct' answer.

Lets assume a starting gravity of 1.052 (which is right in the middle of the suggested gravity range for the style) and a batch size of 22L and with those conditions most conservative yeast pitching estimators would suggest about 425billion yeast cells. According to MrMalty - if your yeast is freshly manufactured - you'll need about 23g of yeast (two packs), if the yeast is 6 months old you'll need 26g (more than two packs). Hence, if you direct-pitched only one pack, you would be underpitching by about half - which is not usually a good idea if you want to produce a clean lager with no fruity esters or diacetyl.

When it's made dry yeast is essentially force-fed all the nutrients it needs to kick-start a healthy fermentation, so by using an inadequate starter (either too small, not enough food, nutrients or oxygen) it's more than possible that you might do more harm to the yeast's health than you would do good - because the yeast would expend all those food-reserves in the starter and not fermenting the beer. Put simply, your suggestion of a 500ml or even 1L starter is inadequate if you were to pitch a full pack of yeast (which is designed to ferment a full batch of beer) even with a stir plate (and assuming there is enough food and nutrients) you should be looking at a large starter in the range of 4 to 5L.

If you want to do the 'right' thing - in terms of pitching the 'correct' amount (as measured by most conservative pitching calculators) - pitch two or more packs directly (after rehydrating if you think that is a good idea) or use a starter in the range of 4 to 5L in size. However yeast is a living organism and will adapt and do it's best no matter how much you pitch and some home-brew pitching estimators and some brewers would suggest that 1 pack pitched directly is adequate - it just depends if you want to take that risk and if the additional expense and effort is worth brewing the 'best' beer you can.
 

black_labb

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There seems to be more and more of these threads lately, there was one last night and wolfy gave a big helpful spiel on the same subject.

As others have said you will need a lot more than one packet if you want to pitch cold.

A good cheat instead of stuffing around with starters and possibly hurting your dry yeast in the process.
Go to woolies and grab a tin of saunders malt extract, it has the same gravity potential as LDME should give you gravity of 1035 - 1038 made up to 10L about $7 last time i got it.

Boil it up for a few minutes, total 10L volume, chill and put in small fermenter or sealed bucket and sprinkle your one pack of dry yeast on it at 20 degrees, let it ferment out, chill to 12 degrees, then use the slurry in your intended batch, you may be pleasantly surprised by the results....

That is a starter, and probably more work than a small one as it takes alot of time and effort to chill 10L of wort. I'd also suggest that malt extract is cheaper from a home brew shop than woolies.

Otherwise that is a good description of how to make a low maintenance starter, though I think that a smaller volume would be ideal and easier to manage.
 

Wolfy

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That is a starter, and probably more work than a small one as it takes alot of time and effort to chill 10L of wort. I'd also suggest that malt extract is cheaper from a home brew shop than woolies.

Otherwise that is a good description of how to make a low maintenance starter, though I think that a smaller volume would be ideal and easier to manage.
Actually, unless you have a stir-bar and a large flask or similar container, I'd suggest it's less work. Simply pitch the pack of yeast into a small fermentor and put it in the fermenting fridge - in addition you'll probably make beer that is adequate to drink. I usually make a low-gravity lager and reuse the yeast from that in the next high gravity lager - same concept just adjusting gravity instead of volume.
 

Steve@PMF82

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That is a starter, and probably more work than a small one as it takes alot of time and effort to chill 10L of wort. I'd also suggest that malt extract is cheaper from a home brew shop than woolies.

Otherwise that is a good description of how to make a low maintenance starter, though I think that a smaller volume would be ideal and easier to manage.
Sorry have to disagree with you there.
It is not a "starter" its farming some yeast for slurry.

Chilling 10L in a pot in the sink is very easy, put pot in sink, fill with cold water leave it for half an hour, done.
This is not my method of choice as i dont use dry yeast, it was an easy suggestion to farm some yeast from one packet.
I grow all my liquid yeast from small steps and i can assure you FOR ME the above method with one pack of dry yeast would be a lot less hassle for cold pitching a lager.

As for extract being cheaper from LHBS.
LHBS for 500g LDME $12.....1KG of Saunders liquid malt extract from supermarket which is concentrated and has the same extract potential as LDME $7 nearly half the price for twice the amount! And it tastes better, so when i am growing my yeast and tasting the results it actually does not taste bad when everything is going right, which shitty stale LDME does - easier to notice off flavour from possible stress or infections ect.
This is only for growing yeast, not using in main batches of wort, in which case i would reco briess extracts, in the few partials i have done it has performed very well.
 

black_labb

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Actually, unless you have a stir-bar and a large flask or similar container, I'd suggest it's less work. Simply pitch the pack of yeast into a small fermentor and put it in the fermenting fridge - in addition you'll probably make beer that is adequate to drink. I usually make a low-gravity lager and reuse the yeast from that in the next high gravity lager - same concept just adjusting gravity instead of volume.
I was thinking that 4L into 2 plastic bottles would be easier than 10L. Just because you don't have a stir plate doesn't mean you need to make a 10L starter. Doing a 10L low gravity beer is a good compromise though
 

Nick JD

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For 20L I'd make a 1.040 2L starter (with stirplate) out of the packet of yeast, but that's just me.

I wouldn't use S23 either because it's fruity even when babied. But again, that's just me.
 

iralosavic

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Truman: the issue I'm having is more with the spinning power when using a couple of stronger rectangular magnets that suit my 60mm stirbar. My 28mm bar works great and doesn't throw the bar off, but it just doesn't get 5L moving.

Nick; I hope to prove you wrong, as I don't feel there is room for fruitiness in a Dortmunder. Makes it a hard choice now hmmm a yeast originating from Dortmund or a cleaner Pilsen style one that doesnt have the style origins...

As for starters etc I think I'll just pitch 2 packs and attempt to collect/rinse some when I rack.

Cheers gentlemen
 

Wolfy

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I was thinking that 4L into 2 plastic bottles would be easier than 10L. Just because you don't have a stir plate doesn't mean you need to make a 10L starter. Doing a 10L low gravity beer is a good compromise though
But you would need 6L of intermittently shaken starter, which is 3x 2L plastic bottles (according to MrMalty because I can't be bothered thinking more myself), which should produce a similar amount of yeast to a 4L stir-plate starter or 10L simple starter (Beer4U's suggestion).
 

black_labb

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Fair enough, should have checked my numbers before posting based on gut feel.
 

Nick JD

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Nick; I hope to prove you wrong, as I don't feel there is room for fruitiness in a Dortmunder.
Same!

Fermentis website:
S23
This bottom fermenting yeast is originating from the VLB (Berlin) in Germany and is known under the code RH. The strain is used by Western European commercial breweries and has been reported to produce lagers with some fruity and estery notes. Sedimentation: high. Final gravity: medium.
S189
Originating from the H€rlimann brewery in Switzerland, also under collection at Weihenstephan under number "W195", this very popular strain is used by a large number of commercial breweries. Selected for its fairly neutral flavour development, this yeast is recommended for a wide range of lager and pilsen beers. Sedimentation: high. Final gravity: medium.


I've used both these yeasts a lot and reckon fermentis has described them well.
 

iralosavic

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Same!

Fermentis website:
S23
This bottom fermenting yeast is originating from the VLB (Berlin) in Germany and is known under the code RH. The strain is used by Western European commercial breweries and has been reported to produce lagers with some fruity and estery notes. Sedimentation: high. Final gravity: medium.
S189
Originating from the Hrlimann brewery in Switzerland, also under collection at Weihenstephan under number "W195", this very popular strain is used by a large number of commercial breweries. Selected for its fairly neutral flavour development, this yeast is recommended for a wide range of lager and pilsen beers. Sedimentation: high. Final gravity: medium.


I've used both these yeasts a lot and reckon fermentis has described them well.
It turns out they only had one pack of 34/70 left and it was nearly a year old. They just gave it to me with the two packs of s-23, which I have resigned to using.

Nick, I've read the description, which was why I steered away from it until MHB pointed out its origins. At the end of the day, the worst case scenario is that it's not perfect and I'll have something to compare it against when I try again with another yeast strain. At $15 for two packs though, I'd rather get a single vial of Whitelabs any day!
 

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