RIMS - do we think it's something it's not meant to be?

[Adr_0]

I guess my pedantic natures makes me good at my job and brew tech, but annoying on forums.

I originally built a 3V system with a pump to transfer hot water to the mash tun. This worked ok and I did a manual recirc for a few litres and gravity-drained to a boiler. This essentially gave me a two tier 3V system.

I then did some slight tubing/valve changes and ended up having a system where either the HLT or mash tun can feed into a pump and then it goes back to the top of the mash tun. So you can pump hot water into the mash tun as an infusion, but also recirculate the mash liquor at any stage using the pump. This of course gives a big step in efficiency and wort clarity as well as saving effort, so is worth doing.

Now I would claim this is a RIMS - Recirculating Infusion Mash System. That is, an automated mechanism (pump) to recirculate the mash liquor, but still relying on infusion of hot water for stepping the mash temp.

HERMS is of course Heat Exchanger Recirc Mash System. Now I would argue that a blowtorch, immersion heater or plate/shell + tube heat exchanger would all qualify as a heat exchanger. I believe the arguments on immersion heaters vs exchangers are just technology arguments for different HERMS, not RIMS vs HERMS.

So, has everyone got it wrong? (don't just say "No"...)
Is RIMS actually just throwing a recirc pump on the mash tun and still using hot water for infusions?
And HERMS is recirc pump + direct heat to the recirc line?

 

[schrodinger]

My reading of the terminology was always that RIMS directly heated the recirculated wort, whereas HERMS heated it indirectly via water, which was itself heated directly. The functional distinctions are that the wort can never exceed boiling temps in a HERMS, whereas it can in a RIMS, which means in theory you can 'scorch' the wort in RIMS but not in HERMS, but it's easier to achieve a given step (or maintain a given temp) in RIMS.

 

[mb-squared]

yep, schrodinger got it I'd say.

 

[booargy]

So what if the heat exchanger was a shotgun condensor running on steam or water what would that be? Infusion I thought was adding hot water to reach step temperature.

 

[Adr_0]

That's fair enough as a difference but it seems like there should be major differences between the two systems based on them being Recirculating Infusion vs Heat Exchanger Recirculating - the key one with RIMS being Infusion, whereas infusion doesn't appear in HERMS.

All the literature you read has RIMS with an immersion heater.

Is it possible that there is a bit of misinformation happening on the internet?

 

[Adr_0]

So what if the heat exchanger was a shotgun condensor running on steam or water what would that be? Infusion I thought was adding hot water to reach step temperature.

Bingo - I would still call that HERMS. The key is that RIMS still needs a separate source of hot water to raise temperature, but still has recirc.

(I should start a cult... $5 to join)

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Typical rims exposes the wort directly to heating elements, HERMS doesn't by using an exchange system.
Both use recirculation so the same in that respect.
RIMS has potential to burn wort and denature enzymes.
Nev

 

[pk.sax]

Rims directly heats part of the wort (the amount circulating through the pipe) and infuses that back into the mash to raise the mash temp.

herms also heats a part of the wort in circulation however it heats indirectly from source of heat to wort through a medium in a hx.

In an hx, the boiling point of the exchange medium is a limiting factor so hx design becomes critical for efficient ramping. Directly heating the wort eliminates the step.

I think a most simple rims would be to have a copper/steel pipe section post the pump stage feeding the wort back into the mash tun and have a flame with an adjustable knob heating the pipe directly. Especially with a mash vessel that can lose heat to surroundings this can be adjusted with a little play to create fairly good temp and increase heat for a ramp while constantly recirculating.

 

[Adr_0]

Typical rims exposes the wort directly to heating elements, HERMS doesn't by using an exchange system.
Both use recirculation so the same in that respect.
RIMS has potential to burn wort and denature enzymes.
Nev

That's fine, but there is still no fundamental difference between the processes even though they have very different names: both seem to have sources of heat applied to the recirc line, but the one is called Recirc Infusion Mash System and the other is Heat Exchange Recirc.

I guess my main points of raising the questions:
1. My setup - where I can recirc the mash but still rely on draining the HLT each step to raise the temperature - seems to embody what I would call a Recirculating Infusion Mash System, but all the literature out there says something else.
2. People new to brewing/AG can benefit from understanding upgrade paths, and can obviously be easily intimidated by a HERMS setup. It seems logical that a step in between - providing the recirculation but still relying on infusions - can provide an intermediate and worthy upgrade step and is a less intimidating one to take.
3. I see a lot of baseless and questionable information on the internet but believe in doing things properly and educating yourself properly. There are certain HB websites out there that are 'all tip and no iceberg' and I wonder - quite innocently... - if incorrect information has just been propagated again and again.

 

[booargy]

lots of ******** can be found on the internet. is that your opinion, the truth or is your news limited. it takes more energy to use water for heating, stream is easier to move around, electric/gas is even easier to get the energy into the wort. water also doesn't need the control loop to be very accurate, steam is easy to control, with direct electric/gas heating the control needs more accuracy. so the systems are the same **** slightly different smell.

 

[TheWiggman]

Look at the acronym - R = recirculating. If it's for step infusions, and it's not recirculating, it's not RIMS.
This assumes RIMS stands for what you say it does. Many people still thing the V in DVD stands for 'video'.

 

[Cocko]

@ OP: It is slow decoction mashing, mate. It is not recirculating for the length of the mash, or am I reading it wrong?

You are adding hot water to control or raise the mash temp yeah?

 

[431neb]

Totally see your point.

Perhaps the form and function of what many refer to as RIMS - ie Recirculating Infusion Mash System would be more accurately described (in its most frequent form) as a Recirculating Immersion Mash System, with the immersion obviously referring to the submersed element / heat source.

HERMS is a less ambiguous acronym in my opinion.

 

[booargy]

so RIMS is recirculating with heat input from an infusion. HERMS is recirculating with a heat input from a heat exchanger.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Funny thing I was just discussing using solar power (possibly parabolic mirror) directly, not converted to electricity to make a SOLAR-HERMS System.
Try doing that with a RIMS tube ?
Nev

 

[MaltyHops]

Heat Exchanger Recirculating Infusion Mash System (HERIMS)

 

[booargy]

This is interesting because I am planning a new kettle and I am thinking of using an external heating source and hop addition chambers


View attachment 70727

 

[booargy]

Funny thing I was just discussing using solar power (possibly parabolic mirror) directly, not converted to electricity to make a SOLAR-HERMS System.
Try doing that with a RIMS tube ?
Nev

Solar thermal is about using mirrors to heat a thermal bank or water directly. the rims tube could be heated externally and do the same thing.
I have seen these boiling water http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10-units-Vacuum-Tubes-solar-water-heater-evacuated-tubes-solar-/231010401364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item35c94afc54

 

[Cocko]

Solar thermal is about using mirrors to heat a thermal bank or water directly. the rims tube could be heated externally and do the same thing.

If a rims tube was heated externally, it would be a herms... yeah?



EDIT: Or do you mean, still an internal, direct wort heat application where the source or the element s heat is external?

 

[Camo6]

Now I would claim this is a RIMS - Recirculating Infusion Mash System. That is, an automated mechanism (pump) to recirculate the mash liquor, but still relying on infusion of hot water for stepping the mash temp.

Since your heat additions are not infused via recirculation I'm not so sure that's the most accurate description.

How bout 'Separately Producing Energy for Recirculating Mash System'. But that's a real mouthful. An acronym would be necessary.

 

[MaltyHops]

Since your heat additions are not infused via recirculation I'm not so sure that's the most accurate description.

How bout 'Separately Producing Energy for Recirculating Mash System'. But that's a real mouthful. An acronym would be necessary.

Geez... a bit too much info right there :blink:

 

[booargy]

If a rims tube was heated externally, it would be a herms... yeah?



EDIT: Or do you mean, still an internal, direct wort heat application where the source or the element s heat is external?

where I work we heat water in a pipe using mirrors to produce steam which turns a turbine(It dosen't work very good) So if a pipe has wort flowing through it and mirrors are heating the pipe and in turn the wort so yes it is an exchange of heat. the heat exchanger could be a tube in a tube with the centre tube being heated by a gas flame, steam, water or electricity.
So a RIMS doesn't heat just recirculates I had never thought about it until I started to read Kunze.

 

[Cocko]

where I work we heat water in a pipe using mirrors to produce steam which turns a turbine(It dosen't work very good) So if a pipe has wort flowing through it and mirrors are heating the pipe and in turn the wort so yes it is an exchange of heat. the heat exchanger could be a tube in a tube with the centre tube being heated by a gas flame, steam, water or electricity.
So a RIMS doesn't heat just recirculates I had never thought about it until I started to read Kunze.

So, point being, RIMS heats the wort by direct contact with a heating element - be it heated by 'whatever' = the wort is flowing around the direct source.

HERMS, the wort is being run through something that is heated externally, equaling a heat 'exchange' - So a coil in heated water or a like...

Well, thats how I see it. May be way off, I am sure some BIAB rig that pumps through a beer can that is in a chicken that is in an oven will probably be the next big thing...

18 shilling.

 

[Eagleburger]

Iam planning a brew rig using steam for heat distribution too. I am just going to wrap heating pipes around the all vessels. Use same pipe for cooling kettle. Not very efficient I know, but easy to clean. Cooling water will be collected and used for cleaning up. Water chiller used for fermentation, will be used to cool last 20deg or so. Also gonna have a mash stirrer.

This is interesting because I am planning a new kettle and I am thinking of using an external heating source and hop addition chambers

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[MartinOC]

so RIMS is recirculating with heat input from an infusion. HERMS is recirculating with a heat input from a heat exchanger.

You're so close it's not funny..

The mash itself IS the infusion.

In the case of single-step mashes, the recirculation merely recirculates, giving even temperatures within the mash/grain bed. In essence, the heat source is only to achieve steps in temperature (or maintain temperature stability) during the desired mash regime. This can be achieved by adding extra hot water (a-la the OP's system), or via a H/X (HERMS) or passing/pumping the wort through a tube that contains an element, or directly firing the mash tun (classic RIMS).

All of these systems involve recirculation & they all involve infusion. It's just the way heat is applied (& why) that makes the difference.

 

[Florian]

How bout 'Separately Producing Energy for Recirculating Mash System'. But that's a real mouthful. An acronym would be necessary.

Would hate to have a mouthful of that acronym... :icon_vomit:

 

[schrodinger]

I always thought both RIMS and HERMS were infusion systems (what's infused is the recirculated wort), and that the "I" was left out of "HERMS" so it wouldn't sound like we all had gaggles of concubines in our brewhouses.

I did steps using steam infusion for years -- no recirculation, just a pressure cooker and copper manifold, and the steam adds negligible volume. But it was very hard to get uniform warming. I reckon any flavor of xRxMS is better.

 

[mje1980]

I thought a RIMS setup just gave you a good feeling while you brewed. Damn

 

[Eagleburger]

It does if you dont have a Recirculating Infusion Mash System.

 

[Adr_0]

Since your heat additions are not infused via recirculation I'm not so sure that's the most accurate description.

How bout 'Separately Producing Energy for Recirculating Mash System'. But that's a real mouthful. An acronym would be necessary.

But they are... the heat is from the hot water via the recirc line. I can recirc whenever I want and the heat comes from infusions.

Maybe what people accept as RIMS should actually be Recirculating Immersion Heating Mash System, or RIHMS. Sounds the same but it shows that you have an Immersion Heater there.

In industry, Heat Exchangers (one stream heating, one stream cooling) are tagged HX, e.g. HX-2404. Electric heaters are tagged HE-2404 (trust me, I'm an engineer). Using this logic, it should be HXRMS unless you use an electric heater - in which case it should be HERMS. Mind blown?

So I'll call my system RIMS (doesn't say anything about heating in RIMS) but let others call their systems RIHMS.

Last chance to join the cult for only $5 before the price goes up...