Reverse Osmosis Water

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Ckilner

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I'm considering a RO filter but can't decide on 4 or 5 stage. The aim is to give me a blank sheet so that I can add the salts I want.
The water in my area is very hard so great for stouts but not for hoppy pale ales.
Suggestions?
 
I think hard water is pretty good for hoppy pale ales to, check out Burton water.

Lagers don't need such hard water.

I live in Melbourne so the water here is pretty soft, I filter through a carbon filter which doesn't take long and add gypsum, epsom salts, salt and chalk for hoppy pale ales.

I add only calcium chloride for lagers
 
I've jumped in and bought a 4 stage RO filter. It's arriving tomorrow so brew day later this week. We'll see if it improves the beer.
 
I think hard water is pretty good for hoppy pale ales to, check out Burton water.

Lagers don't need such hard water.

I live in Melbourne so the water here is pretty soft, I filter through a carbon filter which doesn't take long and add gypsum, epsom salts, salt and chalk for hoppy pale ales.

I add only calcium chloride for lagers
Chalk shouldn't be used in brewing in my opinion and it shouldn't be used in conjunction with salts when you try to lower PH but that's just my opinion.
 
Agree entirely, only ever add carbonate if you want to raise the pH, otherwise you are trying to both lower the pH with salts and raise it with carbonates at the same time, which doesn't make any sense!
About the only time you will need to raise the pH would be in a beer with more than about 10% dark or roast malt/adjunct.

Worth noting that even in RoMo or distilled water you wont get below 5.6pH with just salt additions. You would need acid either as acid or acidulated malt. If there is any carbonate you wont even get down to 5.6pH as it will counter the pH lowering ability of the salts.

Salts lower the pH by reacting with Phosphates in the malt, Calcium Phosphate is pretty much insoluble in wort, there is a very limited mount of Phosphate available in the malt so the limiting factor is the amount of Ca3(PO4)2 that can be formed. Carbonate requires about 3.5 times as much available acidity to get rid of it. Means a small addition does a lot more harm to your pH target than people would expect.

Look up "Residual Alkalinity" if you want the theory, Braukaiser covers it pretty well in a basic approachable way.
Mark
 
I add chalk (dissolved in carbonated water) to simulate Burton water not to raise pH, same with gypsum, epsom salts and salt. I adjust pH with lactic acid if required, if it's 5.4 or even 5.5 I don't try and correct it. I adjust sparge water pH to 4.4
 
I add chalk (dissolved in carbonated water) to simulate Burton water not to raise pH, same with gypsum, epsom salts and salt. I adjust pH with lactic acid if required, if it's 5.4 or even 5.5 I don't try and correct it. I adjust sparge water pH to 4.4
Why would you want to Burtonise your water? Burton-on-trent may be the home of IPAs but their water isn't the best standard to use.

And you don't get any advantage in loading sulfates past 3 or 4 hundred, especially not the 800 you need for Burton water. Their bicarbonate isn't what makes their water, its the sulfate and you can get the same results by just using gypsum.

If you're going to mess with you water, I'm not being rude but you should fully understand why you're adding ingredients. Not just "I want x profile and I'll add Z Y W to get there"

Bicarbonate should never be added to water, as its detrimental to the beer in almost every case bar some dark beers.

Also sulfates in the 800 range like true Burton water will have a mild laxative effect in some people.

You should really understand the chloride:sulfate ratio as thats a better method than just replicating Burton water.

Just my opinion but I would give serious thought to changing the way you use brewing salts and looking into what they all do and how they interact.

You're adding a ridiculous amount of bicarbonates only to try and remove them with lactic acid. Just doesn't make sense to me.
 
I add chalk (dissolved in carbonated water) to simulate Burton water not to raise pH, same with gypsum, epsom salts and salt. I adjust pH with lactic acid if required, if it's 5.4 or even 5.5 I don't try and correct it. I adjust sparge water pH to 4.4
And sparge water pH isn't as important as the alkalinity of the water, and even so 4.4 is way low for sparge water. You should be fine with normal tap ph unless you are running high extraction and risking acidification but with Melbourne's water being so non alkaline, you hardly should need to acidify it let alone to 4.4 in my opinion.
 
Worth noting that even in RoMo or distilled water you wont get below 5.6pH with just salt additions. You would need acid either as acid or acidulated malt. If there is any carbonate you wont even get down to 5.6pH as it will counter the pH lowering ability of the salts.
I beg the differ, I've been brewing with RO water for years and have never had a mash above 5.5pH adding minimal salts to the mash to get the desired mineral profile for PA, light lagers and dark beers, all ranging from 5.15 to 5.5pH with a 5 stage RO filter setup.
 
I would be taking a long hard look at the pH meter.
Mark
 
How much am I adding?
If you're trying to replicate Burton water then you're going into the hundreds of PPM. Or else you're not replicating the PPM of Burton water and are simply adding bicarbonate for what ever reason you feel is appropriate. I'm simply trying to provide some feedback on adding an acidic and a basic ingredient at the same time. Year 8 chemistry would show there is no reason. Bicarbonates are bad for beer in the vast majority of cases.

At the end of the day, you're brewing beer for yourself and if you feel that adding lactic acid and chalk at the same time is a good thing and you're going to keep doing it then good for you, but plenty of times I have re-evaluated my brewing process based on feedback from others and stopped doing things. If you think you have a better grasp on water chemistry then the likes of MHB and Martin Brungard then you do you.
 
How much am I adding?
This is directly from the Key Concepts of Brewing Water (Melbourne)

2.2 Bicarbonate HCO3
-
Bicarbonate is the principal ion of alkalinity in water. It is the ion formed when carbonate CO32- dissolves
in water, eg. when adding calcium carbonate CaCO3 (chalk) to brewing liquor.
Noonan: “Bicarbonate resists increases in the mash acidity by neutralizing acids as they are formed. It also hinders gelatinization of starch by a-amylase, impedes trub flocculation during the cold break, and increases the risk of contamination in the ferment. It contributes a harsh, bitter flavour that is overwhelming in delicate lagers. Most water supplies are slightly alkaline, due to the buffering by the
strongly basic reaction of even a small amount of bicarbonate. At over 50ppm Alkalinity as CaCO3, (30ppm HCO3-) water reacts sluggishly to acidulation in the mash and kettle.”

So when the brewing world works to take bicarbonates out of their beer, and Melbourne has such low levels I don't see why you would blindly add bicarbonates to your water.

Not to mention Burton water has been shown since to have been boiled and adjusted, so just trying to clone their basic water profile wont net you the results of their beers, because they boiled and altered their water.

If you don't want the feedback no dramas
 
Your assumptions are wrong but you dived in with them anyway, I add about 1g of chalk to the mash for English beers, bitter and mild specifically. I add gypsum epsom salts too. For some other beers I don't add anything for american pale ales I add gypsum and epsom salts. For lagers I add calcium chloride.

I appreciate useful feedback.
 
"I live in Melbourne so the water here is pretty soft, I filter through a carbon filter which doesn't take long and add gypsum, epsom salts, salt and chalk for hoppy pale ales."

"I add chalk (dissolved in carbonated water) to simulate Burton water not to raise pH"

I didn't assume anything, you stated you add chalk to simulate Burton water. Both MHB and I gave you compelling reasons why chalk should not be added, I explained why blindly trying to replicate a water profile from England isn't a great idea in my opinion, and gave reasons why carbonates shouldn't be added.

You seem quite defensive about adding it, so if you add chalk for English beers, bitters and milds what's the reason? Is there a specific purpose you're trying to achieve by adding chalk?
 
Also I'm not trying to criticise you or personally have a dig, just trying to understand the reasoning is all. Hope you don't feel offended im sorry if I come across as rude. Not my intention.
 
I re-wrote my post a few times to make sure I wasn't being aggressive in response to you as I did think your assumption that I was blindly replicating Burton water was a little short, it is difficult to pick up the intended nuances in typed responses like this which would be obvious if we were having this conversation over a beer. I don't try and replicate historic Burton water, it is disgusting but I add the salts mainly to increase sulfate levels as you say we should.

I have read lots of stuff about water and there is a difference between adding chalk to the mash where it does indeed raise the pH and dissolving it in carbonated water where something else happens, I decided at the time it was a good idea so I have added it to my process for those English beers, I have no real idea why but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

With regard to sparge water pH, I do good boils and typically loose 4 L per hour with 20L batches and do have quite high efficiencies, 90% into the kettle so I really don't want to pick up tannin from the grain husks.

Does this make more sense to you?
 
I re-wrote my post a few times to make sure I wasn't being aggressive in response to you as I did think your assumption that I was blindly replicating Burton water was a little short, it is difficult to pick up the intended nuances in typed responses like this which would be obvious if we were having this conversation over a beer. I don't try and replicate historic Burton water, it is disgusting but I add the salts mainly to increase sulfate levels as you say we should.

I have read lots of stuff about water and there is a difference between adding chalk to the mash where it does indeed raise the pH and dissolving it in carbonated water where something else happens, I decided at the time it was a good idea so I have added it to my process for those English beers, I have no real idea why but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

With regard to sparge water pH, I do good boils and typically loose 4 L per hour with 20L batches and do have quite high efficiencies, 90% into the kettle so I really don't want to pick up tannin from the grain husks.

Does this make more sense to you?
Yes it makes sense. Some non critical feedback, where if we were having a beer talking you'd have told me to wind my neck in ages ago haha.

But, a little feedback.

Adding the chalk to soda water essentially allows the chalk (calcium carbonate) to fully dissolve. This allows the effects of the chalk to be fully used.

Chalk increases alkalinity of the mash, which works to resist the acidification or drop in pH. It can be useful in some dark beers where the water has low alkalinity and a roast or dark grain bill more than 10%. This can be an instance where chalk is usefull to prevent the pH going too low.

In all other situations, it simply prevents the mash from reducing in pH which is what you want to achieve. You then need to add more lactic acid then needed to overcome the buffering effect of the chalk you just added, so that you can reduce the pH of the mash.

So chalk really only increases alkalinity and adds calcium without adding sulfates or chlorides.

I hope that makes more sense?

With the mash PH, if you are fly sparging and really running down to the low low gravity running to eek out every little bit of sugar, then you do need to worry about the pH of the wort being collected.

To avoid this, you need to reduce the alkalinity of the water. The alkalinity of the sparge water is what's important as the grain will reduce the pH of the sparge water, unless its alkaline (buffered) in which case you need to essentially remove that problem by reducing the pH.

Melbourne water has very low alkalinity to start, and RO water would have almost no alkalinity. For this reason, I said its not important to worry about reducing the pH of the sparge water, and even if you did need to reduce it a pH of 4 would still be considered pretty low.

Just some feedback to consider.

To dial in the styles, when playing with water chemistry consider targeting sulfide to chloride ratios as the factor for increasing perceived hoppiness vs maltyness.

Again, I probably just fired off some replies and came across as a rude c**t which was not my intention. Reading back over my posts I probably came off as arrogant and rude, and if you ask my mates they would probably say.. that's me down to a tee. Haha.
 
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