Replicating a bygone ale

[wide eyed and legless]

When Fullers say they have replicated a brew from the days of yore, as in their Past Master series I wonder how close they could possibly be, I doubt there would be anyone put an argument up. Much as I would like to know what folk were drinking 100 years or so ago, I just wonder how close they could get to the mark.
Having read Ron Pattison's book and the posts Edd the Brew puts up, and as much as I would like to replicate some of those beers, there is nothing to taste as a guide, malts are different now, far more modified, then the yeast strains could be different, hops would have been whole hops, also the barrel aging.
So is it just romanticism, I would imagine that the claims made by Fullers would help sell the product.

 

[altone]

It is a bit fanciful and certainly a good marketing ploy.

I've tried to make a couple of Ed's more recent recipes and they certainly take me back to the beer tastes of my teens - as I remember them.
But how close to the original, rather than being reminiscent, is up for debate I'd say, using todays ingredients.

Still, even a passing tribute to beers of the old days is worthwhile don't you think?

I'm sure there are various methods that people far more knowledgeable than I can cite to get closer to those old brews.
But none of us know just HOW close it would taste to the original because as you say, there are no guidelines other than perhaps some
vague tasting notes from the days gone by.

Still something worth pursuing I think to broaden one's horizons.

But yes it seems a bit trendy right now to replicate a bygone beer or rescue an ancient yeast by some of the companies out there.

 

[MHB]

In the case of Fullers, I suspect quite a lot closer than you might think. They have complete records of each beer they have ever made (a researchers dream). They would be able to trace the changes in ingredients over time and have a pretty decent idea what new malts, hops and even plant, equipment and processes has done to the beer.

100 Years isn't exactly the dark ages, by 1918 there were well established commercial brewers (think big brewers, i.e. Fullers) large scale maltings, in fact we are at the early stages of what could be called modern brewing.
I've tasted some of the Past Masters, agreed they probably aren't identical to the beers the homage, but if you could compare side by side I suspect the similarities would far outshine the differences.
Mark

PS, If you want to look at how people research beer/brewing history there is some very good information here - Durden park Beer Circle, there are also some really well researched recipes on the site. Have brewed a couple and can recommend them to anyone with an interest.
M

 

[YAPN]

I would imagine that commercial brewers today would be able to achieve more consistency.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Agree that the Old Masters probably would taste better than the beer they are trying to replicate, I don't suppose there is anything wrong using today's technology to make it that much better. I have seen old pre war movies where drinkers complain about a bit of hop matter floating around in their beer, would be a novelty today to get that.
So the Chevalier malt which Ed talks about would that be malted in the same way as originally or would the malting be more advanced? Just started reading about malt but would like more information about the differences in the pale malts between the malting companies, is there any literature regarding this?

 

[Black n Tan]

Just got my hands on the Crisp Chevalier malt and made a Landlord clone, looking forward to trying it next week.

 

[MHB]

Floor malted barley is probably going to be your best choice, the floor malting process was in use for thousands of years in various forms.
Really I think you aren't giving our ancestors quite enough credit, the other point is that if you use a bit more less "perfect" malt to get the same amount of extract, how different would the extract be?
If your malt had higher protein, and you boiled for 2-3 hours to condense more out of solution, wouldn't you end up in about the same place (60 minute boils have only become standard in the last 20-30 years as malt improved).
Agreed that modern maltsters and brewers can achieve better quality and consistency but for me the really big changes came with the knowledge that yeast was responsible for fermentation (Pasteur <1895) and the ability so culture pure strains by Emil Hansen who patented his pure yeast propagator in 1888.
By the start of the 20th centaury beer was mostly being made with clean yeast. At least it wasn't full of wild strains, Lacto, Brett....
That's where quality consistent beer started, far more important than the changes to malt and hops that have come later in the 20th centaury.
Mark

 

[Outback]

A lot of the breweries "way back when" kept amazing records that have survived. Our knowledge of how malt was produced and the shortfalls compared to today's production are all well understood, hop varieties used are still around, storage techniques have changed dramatically so how stale they were at the time they were used and what was considered fresh is a bit of an unknown. I reckon we can't be sure of exactly how they tasted, but we can give it a red hot crack.

 

[malt and barley blues]

Museum Brewery replicate some of the ales which are no longer made, I did write and ask for a recipe but got no reply, there is a book you can buy Home Brewers Recipe Database (Amazon) which carries a lot of current and historical records.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Just got my hands on the Crisp Chevalier malt and made a Landlord clone, looking forward to trying it next week.

Where did you get it?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Museum Brewery replicate some of the ales which are no longer made, I did write and ask for a recipe but got no reply, there is a book you can buy Home Brewers Recipe Database (Amazon) which carries a lot of current and historical records.

Book has been purchased.

 

[MHB]

The Home Brewers Recipe Database" is just a compilation of the recipes in Roger Protz, 1-6 or what ever it is, over 20 years worth.
You might be disappointed at the amount of detail (call it sketchy), most home brewers aren't used to working out a recipe from the ground up, but there's enough there to get you well down the road.
The recipes sometimes leave a lot of room to get creative.
Mark
Something like this

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Yes had a look through it, not a lot of detail but enough to play around with, not that keen on the higher gravity beers, so will be happy with some of the recipes, still comes back to taste tests, as long as they taste OK and I can have a good session beer my imagination can do the rest.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

The Home Brewers Recipe Database" is just a compilation of the recipes in Roger Protz, 1-6 or what ever it is, over 20 years worth.
You might be disappointed at the amount of detail (call it sketchy), most home brewers aren't used to working out a recipe from the ground up, but there's enough there to get you well down the road.
The recipes sometimes leave a lot of room to get creative.
Mark
Something like this
View attachment 113780

As in Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz book Brew Your Own Real Ale I notice they never state which pale malt in a recipe, if pale malt variety's have a different taste, also if the same variety is malted by a different maltster the taste can be different, which is the best way to approach this, just using a pale malt that one prefers?

 

[MHB]

When you look at all the things that impact on the flavour of a finished beer I suspect malt would be one of the least of your concerns.
For decades Fullers used only Halcyon, it was available here (briefly) I've used it and really couldn't see much difference in a Fullers ESB clone made with Halcyon V one done side by side with Golden Promise, in fact I scored the Floor Malted GP a better beer.
Go with a good quality UK malt (Floor Malted GP is my go to malt), use old hop varieties (Golding, Fuggle) try long (2 hour+) boils and remember that a lot of the beers of age were partigyles with the premium product (the ones that still being talked about) were probably all first runnings. Have a long hard look at your L:G so your first runnings are at your start of boil target and cop the slightly lower efficiency that comes with not sparging.
Handy equation oP first runnings = CGAI%/(L:G+CGAI%)
For example if your malt had a Coarse Grind As Is potential of 76% and you mashed at a L:G of 4:1
oP = 0.76/(4+0.76) = 0.1596 or 15.96oP (call it 16oP or 1.064). At 3:1 it would be 0.76/3.76=20oP or 1.080
Lots of fun to be had.
Mark

 

[wide eyed and legless]

About half way through reading the book Malt by John Mallet, couldn't put it down last night, most enjoyable parts was the history of malting. (going to look for historical malting and brewing books now)
The other part was the cross breeding of barley to get new strains, can take up to 10 years to get a new strain off the ground. I think I can understand why Scottish spring barley is favourable a bit like growing veg, a touch of frost will increase the sugar (starch) yield. Had to look up separately about the protein content and why brewers prefer a lower count. So far an excellent book and well worth getting I almost have as much respect for malted barley as I do for yeast.
What did ring true was the author suggested home brewers know more about the types of hops than they do about malted barley

 

[Black n Tan]

Where did you get it?

Beerco.com.au are importing and selling it. Looks like they are out of it the moment but pretty sure a shipment is due soon.

 

[Wolfman1]

My wife got a book from the library called the brewers tale about a women brewing beer in 1400s. It’s a little more leaning into the bodice tearing genre but has lots of details on ale making. I fell asleep after the first two pages but will try again
Discussion on malting
Visual picking mashing temp by watching it decrease from boiling
Stirring the wort with her arm every morning
No hops as they hadn’t been imported from Europe yet

 

[MHB]

I have seen one old reference to choosing your strike temperature as being "that which best reflects the brewers face" turns out to be around 70-72oC. Not to far off the money if you don't have thermometers which came along 300 years later.
That was an English reference, relates to using the highly modified malt from a maritime climate that evolved into the single infusion mashing typical of what became the UK brewing.
In continental Europe, they went the other way, mashing in cold, then taking out 1/4-1/3rd decoctions, which works better with less well modified inland malt. Makes for a very long brew day, higher yields and suits the types of malt available.

WE&L
Have you noticed the origins of what is now called 6-row malt? Manchuria in northern China, got to wonder how that happened. Otherwise yes the difference between Spring and Winter Barley and how it affects the beer is interesting.
Funny how often people have talked about using animal feed barley to make malt, have to wonder how much thought has gone into that sort of thinking, protein content alone would rule out most feed barley as being of much use in brewing.

If you get a copy of Kunze, it has a very good overview of the history of malting and brewing (well filtered through a German POV), but well worth a read.
Mark

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Referring to your first paragraph about the thermometer it was strange how when first introduced breweries were reluctant to take them on board, also the hydrometer and it wasn't until the government decided to tax the beer on its gravity that forced the breweries and brewers to put them to use.
As for the malting I was dubious at first about the quality of malt but the maltsters had many years to get it right. A bit like watching Time Team and wondering how on earth they were not only smelting iron but knowing how much carbon to add. I expect it was trial and error which evolved most things which can seem difficult to grasp that our forefathers could achieve.
I would expect the early maltsters would just use their senses, sight, smell, touch and taste though I think consistency could have been difficult to achieve.
That book Wolfman1 A Brewers Tale, was the first audio book I tried from the library, I too only lasted a short way into the book I just couldn't stand audio.
Yes women were the first brewers in fact there was a Viking grave uncovered of a female, and it is thought she was a much revered brewer as all her brewing equipment was buried with her.

I have watched Charlie Bamfoth's Malt video and have started reading this e book .http://www.loscastro.org/marcelo/br...tice) - Briggs, Boulton, Brookes, Stevens.pdf
Would prefer to have it on a kindle but at $490 a bit to pricey I will have a look for the Kunze book
As for the malts themselves and the specs of each malt it would be far easier I would have thought to standardise the spec sheets if they were for export, I tried the Viking Pale Ale malt which is a spring barley first thing I noticed was the aroma, rich and sweet, I made the same recipe a dry Irish stout which I had made previously using MO and my pre boil gravity was higher by about 5 points, I will do another batch of something different and compare them again but I do think the DP (if that is the right term) is higher in the Viking malt.