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Putting grain in from start of heating the water to mash.

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mrsupraboy

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Hey peeps. I'm running a 2v rims system ATM. Always changing how it runs so eventually I don't have to touch it.

1 vessel is my grain and the second is my heating.

I've heard that cold steeping does work tho over a long period.

My question is. Is does anyone throw there grain in from the start of the heating up to mash. If so what effects did it have on taste. And what problems occurred in 1st attempts.

From what I know is the lower u mash the drier the beer
 
"Steep" and "Mash" are two different creatures.
Spec. malt (crystals/roasts/etc) are steeped to extract sugars, flavours and colour.
Base malts are mashed to converts starches to sugars and is conducted between 63 and 69 C (generally)
A cold steep wont convert starch to sugar.

Many brewers employ a "multi-rest mash shedule" and I know of one commercial brewery in the UK that mashes in at 50C and slowly raises the temp to 70C then begins to lauter/sparge.

The reasons for a multi-rest mash are varied. The well modified malts of today don't really require it to achieve good conversion.

Much has been written about the various mash techniques and since the internet is running out of space, I wont expand on this.

In short, it won't hurt to mash your grain low and raise the temp to your desired rest temperature.
 
hey mate, I think it's a great idea, but I haven't had any luck. I've done it twice with my herms, but managed to get stuck sparges both times. My thoughts are that it's all to viscous until it gets hotter. The problem is very frustrating when you need to recirc to heat, but you can't recirc. I think I ended up tipping it all into the kettle.

I know there is at least one other member on here that successfully does it. He mentioned it needing more detail to crush size.

I like the idea of being able to put the grain in the cold water one night, and wake up the next morning with a completed mash (or come home from work with a completed mash). For now, I'm just happy to have the water exactly at mash in temp when I wake up or get home from work.

My thoughts on any downsides would be that you have no choice but to go through all temperatures, and if you decide to stop on a certain temperature, the majority of the mash will likely hold slightly lower. But I think that you would get the hang of it.

I'm very interested though.

Cheers,
Al
 
My experience may not be applicable as I BIAB, but on one of my first batches I got confused with everything I was trying to remember and added my grain as soon as I started heating without meaning to. Spent most of the heating time on a seek and destroy mission for dough balls. The cold water seemed to make the grain clump together. I also had piss poor efficiency but, as I said, it was one of my first AG batches, so there was a world of stuff I didn't know about my system and process that could have affected that.
 
I just switch on the hot water tap, fill the pot up, and chuck it on the stove. Then I grind my grain. By the time the grain's ready, the pot will be the right temp too - mid 70s. Chuck in the grain, the temp evens out to the mid 60s, and you're up and running.
 
I've been listening and reading up on a lot of brew radio and forums. From what I herd is heat just speeds up the conversion rate from the grain.

So in conclusion I can possibly see some advantages with more water contact to the grain.
 
Conversion enzymes are optimised beween high 50s and mid 60s for beta-amylase and mid 60s to low 70s for alpa amylase. Beta activity results in drier, more highly attenuated, alpa more dextrinous, fuller and less attenuated. If you mash much below that, the amylase activity will either be slowed done or non-existent (depending on how low is low).
In order for conversion to effectively occur, malt needs to be hydrated and gelatinised - gelatinisation of malt takes place somewhere around mid/50s - low 60s.

Below these temps, a variety of other enzymes are optimised which will have a variety of effects on the beer - some good, some bad depending on which enzyme and how long the rest is.
In addition, certain tempetatures encourage the growth of bacteria and enough bacterial growth can affect the final beer flavour, even though the bacteria is killed in the boil.

Therefore the final result will depend on the control you have over the tempertaure steps. You can't just mash for an hour in 5 degree water and expect a dry beer if that's what you are thinking (unless you want o mash for days). Dryness comes from extended rests in the low - mid 60s.
 
I read this the op as mashing in at room temp, then raising temp to required temps via his rims, and him wanting to know if there are ill side effects of this.

I could be wrong here though.
 
Quite possibly. OP needs a bit of clarification. Above remains true though - what temps and how long will have specific effects, including room temp (~20 deg C).
 
A3k said:
I read this the op as mashing in at room temp, then raising temp to required temps via his rims, and him wanting to know if there are ill side effects of this.

I could be wrong here though.
That's it my friends couldn't make it any clearer
 
As I said - it depends on how long it remains at the temps between 20 and 60-ish.
 
Mrsupra, are you planning on raising it right away?

I looked into this about a year ago. Manticle's concerns were the main ones that were discussed. In particular, bacteria, as manticle mentioned also. However the general consensus was it seemed acceptable to leave it a few hours at room temp before heating. The other possible downside is that you have no choice but to stay in certain temp ranges for as long as your system heats past it, so you may have undesired reactions that you can't avoid, but I don't know how significant that'd be.

As I mentioned, when I tried it a few times, I had trouble with the mash clogging up as it was too viscous. If you're planning on doing it, make sure you try it a few times whilst you're there. I wouldn't automate it without a temp probe in the rims unit to cut power. This way if the flow stops and the fluid around the element heats up you can stop it. I'd probably also get a flow switch.
 
Your head retention could suffer because of the extended protein rest that you're going to have
 
All that is said above may be true but my advice is DONT DO IT with a rims system.

The problem apart from a stuck sparge which will occur at around 50 deg due to the proteins coagulating in the mash is that those same proteins will burn onto the heat element in the rims and cause burnt and off flavours in the finished beer.
This will also render the element difficult to clean to get it back to how it should be.

A herms is a slightly different prospect as the element is not in direct contact with the wort and while a stuck sparge can be a pita it wont be detrimental to the beer.

In a Braumeister type brewery the wort is made circulate up through the grain and this coupled with a ultra low watt density element prevents the scorching of the wort and the stuck mash.

I will add that I do a similar thing with my BM where I set the dough in temp at 38 deg and while the water is heating I crush the grain. I add it at 38 and with a good stir at dough in I let the BM do its thing at 1 deg per minute until it gets to the first rest at say for example 66 deg and then it does its mash thing from there.
No off tastes and no problems with head retention as it is heating through the protein rest temps fairly quickly.

This may give you something to think about. :)
 
I have never started cold but, I always mash in at 35°c and do several steps for all of my brews on my HERMS. I have had a couple of stuck mashes but they were simply fixed by adding just 450g of rice hulls per 8kg of grains and now I can have my March pump fully flowing with no issues. With the flow rate so high I can easily achieve 1°c per minute over my mash even when I have 18kg + 65L of water in the MLT.

My mash efficiency is around 93% so I think that there might be something behind my mash schedules.
 
Good to hear nathan. I've had issues even with rice hulls, but they were either double or triple batches, maybe I need to give it a crack on a single batch. (I've never had a stuck sparge on my new system other than trying this)

Nathan, What's your schedule?

Cheers
 
I did this overnight, once. It was summer and the water temp out of the tank was in the high teens. Essentially, it resulted in an 8 hour at low acid rest temps and the wort was so sour by morning, I ditched it and started again!
 
nathan_madness said:
I have never started cold but, I always mash in at 35°c and do several steps for all of my brews on my HERMS. I have had a couple of stuck mashes but they were simply fixed by adding just 450g of rice hulls per 8kg of grains and now I can have my March pump fully flowing with no issues. With the flow rate so high I can easily achieve 1°c per minute over my mash even when I have 18kg + 65L of water in the MLT.

My mash efficiency is around 93% so I think that there might be something behind my mash schedules.
When u say stuck mashes do u mean no water can get through the grain.

And maticle I mean put in from room Temp then straight away increase to desired mash temp.
 
Yeah, no wort can get through the false bottom, so the flow through the herms (rims in your case) stops.
You may not have issues but worth considering.
 
I did this overnight, once. It was summer and the water temp out of the tank was in the high teens. Essentially, it resulted in an 8 hour at low acid rest temps and the wort was so sour by morning, I ditched it and started again.


Sounds like you got the lacto-bacilli cranking! Maybe you could have raised temps to kill any bacteria, then frozen and kept for an acidulated wort?

Lacto fermentation is fascinating; there's a lot of lb out there. The usual method is to raise the grain temp to around 48 degrees C and hold for a day to produce souring. But the fact the temp of your grain was only in the 'high teens' suggests you produced essentially the same results, just with a different lb. I wonder if there's any reason this wouldn't work?
 
A little bit OT but I was hunting around for Belgian Gold recipes the other day and read this, he is heating from below with gas though.

The process for making a Belgian golden is elaborate, as the Moortgat brewery in Breendonk (north of Brussels), hints at on its Website. Moortgat is the maker of Duvel, the classic and most successful example of Belgian golden ales. This beer style requires a very extensive mash regimen. At Moortgat it is a four-hour multi-step infusion, in which anything that can be converted will be. To replicate the complex infusion mash employed by Duvel, I use a continuous infusion mashing technique that starts out with an extremely thick dough-in with about two gallons (nearly eight liters) of straight cold tap water. The precise mash temperature at this stage is irrelevant.

After the dough-in, I very slowly infuse the mash with a constant trickle of near-boiling water for four hours while applying gentle heat to the mash tun from below to the mash-out temperature of about 170 °F (77 °C). As the mash heats and thins slowly, it will pass through all the relevant temperature bands for activating all the grain's enzymes (for details, see sidebar to the right).

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/202-belgian-golden-ale-style-profile

Cheers
Matty
 
As the mash heats and thins slowly, it will pass through all the relevant temperature bands for activating all the grain's enzymes

This is very interesting; there must be a lot of traditional mashing styles that operate on a similar principle, and brew days really could be just that - going in duration for all day, or several days. It's occurred to me that for a person with no specific knowledge of enzymes, relevant temperatures, etc - ie, a person in a traditional beer making culture - the simplest, most obvious way of mashing is simply to take water from a nearby stream, add grain, and slowly and patiently heat it over hours, or even days.

Here's one traditional brew description - the mash went on for several days! I'm quoting from Randy Mosher's Radical Brewing, which is quoting from John P Arnold's The Origin and History of Beer and Brewing, who is himself quoting from G Radde's Die Chewsuren and ihr Land. Three quotes in one, not bad.

Where clumps of ancient trees are massed in close array - oak, maple, and ash - we have before us the sacred groves of the Chewsures, preserved by them with veneration; and within them may be found their pagan sacrificial altars, as well as their beer breweries... At the lower edge of the small wood, close to the field of barley, which together with the adjoining meadows, is held the property of Saint George, there stands a roughly constructed hovel, the place for sacrificing. This poor structure is low, dark inside, carelessly put together from flat slabs of slate, and for the moment it was not guarded by anybody. All the implements kept inside, especially the huge beer-tubs, tankards, drinking cups, and the manifold apparatus for brewing, are also looked upon as the property of the guardian angel in question. In the other sacred grove to the east of Blo, they happened to be brewing beer against the approaching holidays; that was why I went thither to be an eye witness to the process.

From the brewer of Saint Michael there escaped a continuous cloud of smoke. Malting was going on there, and the acrid smoke, occasioned by the damp brushwood which had to serve as fuel, together with the escaping steam wrapped the brewhouse completely in a dusky mantle. The brew-house, too, was built in the rudest way, low and insufficiently lighted. There, by a mighty chain, hung the huge copper brew-kettle. Its form is peculiar, and everywhere the same. In its form it most closely resembles a giant top, being from 1 1/2 to 2 arsheen high (3 1/2 to 4 1/2 feet) and at its greatest width about 1/14/ arsheen (3 feet) wide. It begins to belly out at a point above the middle. Artisans of Telaw fashion caldrons like these, their value being somewhere between 100 and 200 roubles. Laterally, this cauldron is held up by carelessly joined stone rubble, while sooty flame licked at it in front and behind. The mash was bubbling in it at a uniform rate, and was stirred now and then. Water was conveyed from the nearby brook through a small pipe that was laid against the outer edge of the cauldron. The crushed barley that is used for the mash is coarse, and is boiled steadily for several days at an even temperature. Then the brew is run into woolen bags, and the latter are fastened above the rim of a vat, using wooden hoops for the fastening, so that the liquid slowly runs into the vat below. The fresh brew thus made, is turbid, rather insipid, and sweetish in flavour. It is poured into tubs 3 or 4 feet high, and 2 to 2 1/2 feet wide, made of one piece (from sections of tree trunks hollowed out), basswood being mostly used for this purpose. Then the required amount of Kakhetian wild hops is added, and the liquor, well covered up, is allowed to stand for 5 or 6 days.

Everything about these consecrated brewers is grimy with smoke and soot, as is also the case with the dwellings and watchtowers of the Chewsurians, and all the implements to be found upon the sacrificial altars and the breweries is considered the personal property of the guardian angel, and is correspondingly venerated."

Radde further relates that women were excluded from the groves, shrines, and breweries. Female participants in festivals remained behind boundaries, with beer and food served to them there.

The brew incorporated with wild hops and malted barley that is dried - and develops colour - over the course of several days, on racks positioned in the eaves of the houses, above the heat of the hearth. Fermentation was done in capacious earthenware pots buried in the ground, large enough for a man to descend into using a ladder.

So now you know how to make Chewsurian ale, "described as brown in colour, reminiscent of dark Bavarian beer, although "imperfectly clean"". Says Mosher. Or Arnold. Or Radde. (Hard to tell.)
 
Noonan recommends doughing in thick at 14c for better kernal hydration. Then infuse up to acid or protein rest depending on schedule. I'm going to try it next time I do a decoction and see how my efficiency changes.
 
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