Pump for CIP spray ball

[Damranger]

Hi all
I've just got a 1.5" tri-clover CIP (clean in place) spray ball for my fermenter - does anyone have any experience with a pump to suit these? Sump or submersible pumps seem the go but I'm keen to get other peoples thoughts. I seem to remember someone had a video on here of their CIP setup but I can't find it...

cheers

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Any pump that delivers more than 60 litres per minute at 1 bar (=10m) head will do fine. IMO submersibles are a terrible idea for CIP duty.

How big is your fermenter? Assuming the sprayball is the unit sold by Geordi etc, they are designed for small commercial tanks.

 

[MHB]

Who ever supplied the spray ball should have supplied a spec sheet that will tell you how much flow you need.
I suspect you are in for a surprise at just how much pump you are going to need.
Here is a good read on options for CIP http://www.fluidproducts.com/TankWashingNozzles.htm
There are also a couple of good discussions on Probrewer and Home Brew Talk

You need to pay attention to your drainage to, if the spray isn't returning to the CIP reservoir quickly enough, it can run dry and in some cased damage the pump. You will also find that a pool of water in the bottom of the vessel will reduce the cleaning effectiveness of the spray on the surfaces under water.

Mark

 

[malt junkie]

Both March and Chugger, do a nano pump that will do the job. The Chugger is around US$400 to your door. The March is a bit more like double that.

 

[TheWiggman]

Got some details on the CIP ball in question? It will have an operating curve or reference table which will specify the flow at a given pressure. Check out page 2 of of this operating manual for a tank nozzle. 60l/min quoted by Lyrebird is at a glance overkill, but better to have a pump with too much flow than not enough. For effective spraying you really want high pressure (150 - 400 kPa), as individual tank cleaning nozzles on the home brew scale can't handle a lot of flow.
The two pumps linked above are good for 8.2m = 80 kPa, or 0.8 bar. What you really want is something like a jacking pump but there are no cheap options that I'm aware of. I only have ties with industrially sized units.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

60 litres per minute @ 1 bar is the recommended pump spec for the 40mm sprayball from Geordi , I thought I'd said that in my response. If this sprayball has smaller holes, you can reduce the pump size.

I agree with Wiggman that the two pumps recommended in post #4 are inadequate for the job, I would add that they are also overpriced. In commercial world it is normal to use a multistage centrif (Grundfos type) for CIP duty to get good delivery pressure. Inevitably there are Chinese companies making something that looks similar at much lower prices.

This pump from Shimge would appear to be suitable, according to the provided curve it will do 60 l/min at about 1.8 Bar. Caveat: I've never used a Shimge pump, for all I know they could be utter crap.

 

[mikk]

A 1.5" sprayball needs LOTS of flow + pressure. If your fermenter is normal 20-50L size, a smaller 0.5" sprayball might be a better solution, & require a much cheaper/smaller pump. The March/chugger pumps mentioned work ok with this size, and are considered 'sanitary' so can also be used for wort/beer.

https://www.brewershardware.com/CIP-Spray-Balls/

 

[MHB]

The Shimge Pump mentioned above, well I wouldn't, having a look at the specs Max temp 40oC, pH max 8.5.
You would want to be careful what you put through it, certainly not hot caustic.

 

[TheWiggman]

A 1.5" sprayball needs LOTS of flow + pressure. If your fermenter is normal 20-50L size, a smaller 0.5" sprayball might be a better solution, & require a much cheaper/smaller pump. The March/chugger pumps mentioned work ok with this size, and are considered 'sanitary' so can also be used for wort/beer.

https://www.brewershardware.com/CIP-Spray-Balls/

Just took off my SI hat and noted that 1.5" is 75mm - a modest size on the home brew scale.
According to the spray ball specs for a 1" ball in the link you attached the minimum recommended pressure is 275 kPa (40 PSI), well above the max operating pressure of 60 kPa for a March pump at 13 l/min (1 gal/min). Note that we're in 50Hz so specs on US sites differ here.
Are you speaking from experience mikk? Because that's different to quoting specs.

Speaking of specs we really do need them from OP...

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

The Shimge Pump mentioned above, well I wouldn't, having a look at the specs Max temp 40oC, pH max 8.5.
You would want to be careful what you put through it, certainly not hot caustic.

Capture.JPG

Good catch, I should have read the whole sheet not just looked at the curve.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Just took off my SI hat and noted that 1.5" is 75mm -

1.5" is 38.1mm*, often rounded up to 40mm.



*Since 1959, when they changed the definition of the inch to make it metric. I kid you not.

 

[malt junkie]

Who would have thought 10hz could make such a huge difference Chugger info
You'd swear they were the same graph of the same pump, perhaps they really are?
I'd sugested them as they were all the rage on the US sites for CIP on a HB scale, obviously the power differences have a big impact on how much grunt one of these can produce.

 

[TheWiggman]

1.5" is 38.1mm*, often rounded up to 40mm.



*Since 1959, when they changed the definition of the inch to make it metric. I kid you not.

Something's wrong with me today, might go home at 4.

 

[TheWiggman]

Who would have thought 10hz could make such a huge difference Chugger info
You'd swear they were the same graph of the same pump, perhaps they really are?
I'd sugested them as they were all the rage on the US sites for CIP on a HB scale, obviously the power differences have a big impact on how much grunt one of these can produce.

Rotational speed of the motor is 5/6 that of our US counterparts, makes quite an impact on a centrifugal pump.

 

[husky]

Who would have thought 10hz could make such a huge difference Chugger info
You'd swear they were the same graph of the same pump, perhaps they really are?
I'd sugested them as they were all the rage on the US sites for CIP on a HB scale, obviously the power differences have a big impact on how much grunt one of these can produce.

Centrifugal pump affinity laws:

• Flow is proportional to pumps speed
• Pressure is proportional to the square of the pump speed
• HP is proportional to the cube of the pump speed

Half the pump speed and you will get 50% the flow, 25% the pressure and require only 12.5% the power so you can see a small change in pump speed can have a big impact to pressure.

At work I use model CD15 below for most small tanks - 1 BAR @ 60L/minute cleans 300L balance tanks with ease and is what I would use to CIP a small fermenter etc if I had a single phase centrifugal pump that would give me that flow.

 

[Damranger]

Thanks guys, heaps of good info. I bought the ball from AliExpress but I'm still to pick it up from my old work where it got delievered, so I don't know if it has a spec sheet. The website says "Operates on 15-100PSI, 40-60PSI is recommended". I've found a few pumps with the PSI range but quite a low flow rate - high pressure, low volume. The CIP was only about $40 shipped but actually making it work seems like it will turn out fairly pricey.

 

[Bj_donovan]

Bunnings ozito submersible pump $80 3 year warrantee...

 

[klangers]

Centrifugal pump affinity laws:

• Flow is proportional to pumps speed
• Pressure is proportional to the square of the pump speed
• HP is proportional to the cube of the pump speed

Half the pump speed and you will get 50% the flow, 25% the pressure and require only 12.5% the power so you can see a small change in pump speed can have a big impact to pressure.

At work I use model CD15 below for most small tanks - 1 BAR @ 60L/minute cleans 300L balance tanks with ease and is what I would use to CIP a small fermenter etc if I had a single phase centrifugal pump that would give me that flow.

SNE Sprayballs.JPG

Not quite.

Centrifugal pumps are not positive displacement pumps, so flow is not proportional to anything simple. If it were a reciprocating pump, then yes, it would be proportional to speed.

Flow through centrifugal pumps is related to the difference in delivery pressure and back pressure in your piping system. The back pressure in your piping system is proportional to the flow and hydraulic parameters of the piping system. As you can see, this requires iteration to solve as it's a simultaneous equation.

 

[2much2spend]

So has anyone got More pics? Love to see some ideas.

 

[malt junkie]

How ridiculous is a simple food grade CIP pump going to get? I mean you can get a little 60hz petrol genny pretty cheap. Is that going to be the simplest, cheapest, most effective solution. (with the chugger landed you'd still be under a grand.) And you could use the gen set to run your standard March/Chugger when brewing and see a step up in performance there too.

Ed: if you have solar some inverters will do 60hz too.