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Providing Feedback For Comp Judges

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brettprevans

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On the back of receiving feedback on entries at a recent comp, personal experience from judging comps, and corro with a fellow judge its made me think that there should be a way to provide judges feedback about their judging sheets. ie a bjcp judge feedback sheet.

I know as a judge, sometime you cant figure something out and you'd love to be able to ask the brewer the question and get the answer or you'd like to know if your comments were useful, but there isnt currently a way to do so.

now im not interesting in people wanting to slag off judges, its got to be the same as bjcp judging ie constructive feedback not 'your beer is shit' or 'your a shit judge'.

e.g. recent comp. one of the judges sent me a pm asking me if his comments on the beer were correct (they mostly were). now there is no formal way of him finding that out. if we both hadnt been on AHB discussing the comp, we wouldnt have been able to exchange info.

e.g. as a judge ive judged beers that ive wanted to know what a particular flavour was (was it a grain, a hop, or a specific brewing process etc). It would be great to know the answer so you can increase your judging knowledge or sometimes just to have answers. If I provide judging feedback 'i think your fermentation temp is too high' its good to know if it was or not. maybe it was just a young beer. Or if i think its an infection and give recs for correcting that. maybe its only one bottle not the whole batch. etc etc etc


what do people think, and I'd be interested to hear comments from the Vicbrew committee.
 

Florian

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My concern with that would be the whole 'The decision of the judges is final and no correspondence will be entered into' thing.

I know you're only meant to judge the beer by the way it's presented to you regardless of brewing faults etc, but it just gets one step closer to people arguing certain points and results afterwards.

I take all comp sheets and results with a large grain of salt. After all, beer judging is different to judging the winner on a 100m sprint, there is always room for disagreement, no matter how experienced, neutral and objective the judges are trying to be.

If you want to contact the judge you can always do so via the email address that should be provided on the score sheet.
 

Vanoontour

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If you want to contact the judge you can always do so via the email address that should be provided on the score sheet.
And each entry should have a section to put contact details so a judge can contact the brewer regarding certain tastes etc to further the judges experience.
 

Paul H

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From a judging perspective everyone's entitled to my opinion :p

:icon_cheers:

Paul
 

manticle

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On the back of receiving feedback on entries at a recent comp, personal experience from judging comps, and corro with a fellow judge its made me think that there should be a way to provide judges feedback about their judging sheets. ie a bjcp judge feedback sheet.

I know as a judge, sometime you cant figure something out and you'd love to be able to ask the brewer the question and get the answer or you'd like to know if your comments were useful, but there isnt currently a way to do so.

now im not interesting in people wanting to slag off judges, its got to be the same as bjcp judging ie constructive feedback not 'your beer is shit' or 'your a shit judge'.

e.g. recent comp. one of the judges sent me a pm asking me if his comments on the beer were correct (they mostly were). now there is no formal way of him finding that out. if we both hadn't been on AHB discussing the comp, we wouldn't have been able to exchange info.

e.g. as a judge ive judged beers that ive wanted to know what a particular flavour was (was it a grain, a hop, or a specific brewing process etc). It would be great to know the answer so you can increase your judging knowledge or sometimes just to have answers. If I provide judging feedback 'i think your fermentation temp is too high' it's good to know if it was or not. maybe it was just a young beer. Or if i think it's an infection and give recs for correcting that. maybe its only one bottle not the whole batch. etc etc etc


what do people think, and I'd be interested to hear comments from the Vicbrew committee.
I think it would open a can of worms and the civil exchange you've had may not always be the case.
 

brettprevans

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If you want to contact the judge you can always do so via the email address that should be provided on the score sheet.
And each entry should have a section to put contact details so a judge can contact the brewer regarding certain tastes etc to further the judges experience.
yup i like that idea because
... open a can of worms ....civil exchange you've had may not always be the case.
all good points. But you know, 360degree communication, feedback loops etc (sorry my management studies escaped for a moment), COULD be a useful tool to enhance comps. I esp like a section that gives judges an option to have email exchanges with brewer. if the email was less than civil the judge can ignore/block the sender and never have to worry about it.

Mants - how about you float the thread idea at the upcoming bjcp study group for some intellectual fun?
 

manticle

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I can offer it up as a suggestion for discussion.
 

Nick JD

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Should one be a judge if they need confirmation from the brewer?
 

Maple

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Just further to this, if the comp is a 'compmaster' entered comp, the judges sheets are available to the judge as well (at least that's what I remember of it from last year. This is good, because at the end of a comp, and a few weeks following, I really can't remember each detail of each beer - having those sheets available to the judge is a great reminder.

Is there a feedback potential in compmaster, rather than it going to 'open-air' of a forum - where things can generally get blown way out of proportion?

All judges can become better judges, and I agree with 360 feedback principles, but at the end of the day - the results are final.
 

manticle

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Should one be a judge if they need confirmation from the brewer?
Ideally no but the comps are niche and rely on volunteers so it's unlikely everyone will be an expert. people interested in judging in my experience, do their best to better their palate and knowledge.
 

brettprevans

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Should one be a judge if they need confirmation from the brewer?
interesting point. i get what your saying. like a judge saying 'is there anything other than x grian in this?' when anyone who done a bit of brewing would know that a 100% x grain beer would be completely differant.

but then again sometimes there more than 1 explanation for a possible fault or flavour.
 

Fourstar

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I have had 3 beers I've judged where I have placed notes in the overall impression such as awesome grain profile, love to know GB/recipe or questions on the yeast strain used etc and have had quiet PMs sent to me. Now i know this is just pure luck of them knowing who i am on AHB (or taken a really good guess) and provided me with info.

Should there be an open forum to communicate with entrants? Probably not due to the can of worms it can open, however if they know who you are, willing to discuss their score/notes with you and you're a willing participant (initiated some form of discussion in your score sheet) I can't see any harm in that. After all, all scores are final and anything discussed post judging will not have an effect on the results of the past competition.*

*provided the entrant understands this prior to any communication beginning.
 

IainMcLean

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I'm not sure a dialogue between judge and brewer is a good idea for many of the previous reasons...

but my thoughts would be an entry should have at least 3 judges and the contestant should take an aggregate of the scores/opinions on the score sheets and is possibly what we're talking about here not a meeting with a judge per se post comp, but a deconstruction of your recipe/process which is a very complex thing.

Maybe some of the judges would be up for a one-on-one with a brewer, his beer and his brewery...

Follow me here:

You have a set of results and the beer in question and possibly are ready to get a mash going...
You get a BJCP judge round to your place, let him taste the beer and judge it.
Then you compare his sheet to the results sheets and he walks you through what everything means relative to your beer and his decision making process.
Then he takes a couple of hours to go over how you should mash the beer, boil and ferment it - taking into consideration your individual set-up...


I think for many that would be far more beneficial and something a lot of people would stump up some cash for....

Thoughts on a postcard please.
 

machalel

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Having had no experience in this sort of thing at all, I can only offer my uneducated opinion, but...

Why not have the facility where the judges can have the ability to have questions etc forwarded to the brewer if they want to ask something, but only if the judge wants to?
It shouldn't be too hard to make this anonymous either
 

manticle

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They're amateur comps staffed by amateurs, run by amateurs and for amateurs.

As brewers often do, I think this runs the risk of over complicating things.

I've had judges at National level not even include their name on the feedback sheet. If I, or someone else had right of correcpondence it would just become a mess.

Judges, take responsibility and make an effort. Entrants (who usually pay a measly $% per entry) suck it up if your beer doesn't do well. Educate yourself enough to know if the judge is speaking rubbish or not. Know your beer, don't rely solely on someone else to know it for you.

Otherwise comps charge $20 per entry and pay the judges who are all bjcp certified. Even the AIBA relies on volunteers.
 

brettprevans

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They're amateur comps staffed by amateurs, run by amateurs and for amateurs.

As brewers often do, I think this runs the risk of over complicating things.

I've had judges at National level not even include their name on the feedback sheet. If I, or someone else had right of correcpondence it would just become a mess.

Judges, take responsibility and make an effort. Entrants (who usually pay a measly $% per entry) suck it up if your beer doesn't do well. Educate yourself enough to know if the judge is speaking rubbish or not. Know your beer, don't rely solely on someone else to know it for you.

Otherwise comps charge $20 per entry and pay the judges who are all bjcp certified. Even the AIBA relies on volunteers.
Yeah mate but ive had 'national' juges give me pathetic feedback. Feedback worthy of nver judgedbefore judges, but they basicly suck arse and fly in the face of bjcp ideology. Judgrs who aren't prepared to put their name to sheets shouldnt judge.
 

fcmcg

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On the back of receiving feedback on entries at a recent comp, personal experience from judging comps, and corro with a fellow judge its made me think that there should be a way to provide judges feedback about their judging sheets. ie a bjcp judge feedback sheet.

I know as a judge, sometime you cant figure something out and you'd love to be able to ask the brewer the question and get the answer or you'd like to know if your comments were useful, but there isnt currently a way to do so.

now im not interesting in people wanting to slag off judges, its got to be the same as bjcp judging ie constructive feedback not 'your beer is shit' or 'your a shit judge'.

e.g. recent comp. one of the judges sent me a pm asking me if his comments on the beer were correct (they mostly were). now there is no formal way of him finding that out. if we both hadnt been on AHB discussing the comp, we wouldnt have been able to exchange info.

e.g. as a judge ive judged beers that ive wanted to know what a particular flavour was (was it a grain, a hop, or a specific brewing process etc). It would be great to know the answer so you can increase your judging knowledge or sometimes just to have answers. If I provide judging feedback 'i think your fermentation temp is too high' its good to know if it was or not. maybe it was just a young beer. Or if i think its an infection and give recs for correcting that. maybe its only one bottle not the whole batch. etc etc etc


what do people think, and I'd be interested to hear comments from the Vicbrew committee.
In the last month , a very well known person , who is also an exceptional judge was slammed on this forum....
I am lucky in so far as I often get his feedback at my club comps and he always has plenty to say on the judges sheet...
It is a pity that some other Melbourne based brew clubs , who run big competitons , and who'se members see fit to bag not said person in front of some of MY clubs members , use judges who seem to lack the ability to write a detailed beer judging sheet....
Now before i get flamed....i have thought very long and very hard about this response....
There is certainly a larger competition that i won't enter again as, a night on the juice is certainly not a pre-cursor to good judging.....
And for what its worth , i know a bloke who works at a LHBS who entered a Berliner Wieser at same not said competition , who was told in his feedback that the beer was too sour and smelt bad..WTF... ????
I've been around this forum long enough to know that I've probably opened a can of worms , but well...i just had to have my very honest 2c...
 

manticle

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(who usually pay a measly $% per entry)
Should say $5 per entry.

Ferg: No need to go there too much but said respected judge wasn't slammed on the forum due to his judging abilities.

Completely separate and no-one could argue he wasn't at least partly responsible for the slamming. Anyway said shit got sorted at the source.

As for the comps - people really do need to remember the amateur caveat. While improvements and suggestions for improvements are great and it is fair to expect a judge to at least write their name (hell they were some of the shittest judging sheets I'd seen and that was all BJCP judges and all at National level), it is unpaid, voluntary and by nature, until beer judging in this nation becomes a viable career, it will remain that way.

They still should make an effort to do a good job - I'm mainly responding to the idea that judges should all know exactly what they are tasting, originally proposed by Nick.
 

fcmcg

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Ferg: No need to go there too much but said respected judge wasn't slammed on the forum due to his judging abilities.

Completely separate and no-one could argue he wasn't at least partly responsible for the slamming. Anyway said shit got sorted at the source.
Yes Manticle , it did....howver...i guess i feel that it has been forgotten what he continues to contribute to brewing.....it is agreed that he needed to change his person , in a retail environment...and i can assure you that he really has felt the heat and has taken it all to heart , and is really trying to change his shop front persona....
I hear what your saying , however , but was just trying to say that he is a very good judge , who gives good feedback ( despite his sometimes gruff persona )
Thanks
Ferg
 

browndog

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Yeah mate but ive had 'national' juges give me pathetic feedback. Feedback worthy of nver judgedbefore judges, but they basicly suck arse and fly in the face of bjcp ideology. Judgrs who aren't prepared to put their name to sheets shouldnt judge
Same here and BJCP certified too. I've had judges at a national level contradict each other Judge 1 "too hoppy" Judge 2 " not enough hops" But back to the OP he is asking for a means of the Judge getting feedback from the brewer. If you put your contact details in the upper left hand corner of the score sheet as you should and ask the brewer to contact you then I can't see any problem.


-BD
 

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