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Goat

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Can any of you Promash boffins shed some light on this for me?

Does 'batch size' in the menu screen (image attached) refer to the volume in the boiler or the volume in the Fermenter. It seems to be logical that its boiler volume - well, logical to me anyway...

My assumption here is that 35L is boiler which will reduce to about 26L after a 90 min. boil. With a couple of litres of troob in the boiler will leave me about 24-25L into the fermenter.

The screen shot is my attempt at Rochfort 10 (you can't see the 11kg of Kirin Pilsner malt) - comments would be welcome.....

Batch_size.jpg
 

JasonY

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Goat I screwed up my last brew ... wasn't thinking and dropped the batch size to 19L .... and got a good 10 points below my target ...

Have done some investigations and I now believe you should set the batch size to be the volume in the kettle AFTER the boil. So the amount you get in the fermenter is this volume minus the losses in the kettle deadspace (and CFC if you use one).

Did this on friday and got the gravity and volume ... phew :D
 

wessmith

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The batch size is normally the cast wort volume from the kettle into the fermenter - ie it would not include kettle losses in trub etc. You may also need to set the defaults to "batch size = wort size" in settings.

Wes.
 

Hoops

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As I understand it the batch size is the volume in the fermenter.
Promash has features so that you can work out pre-boil volumes and mash tun/kettle losses etc.
You calculate it in reverse starting with your target fermenter vol then pre-boil vol, losses from kettle mash tun etc.

Hoops
 

JasonY

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Ok I could still be wrong here but I went and worked it out by hand for the brew I did on friday .... The yield column is the yield from the grain in 1L of water assuming 100% efficiency. The OG is the sum of the yields multiplied by the efficiency and divided by the volume (scaled to read like a gravity , ie div by 1000 and add 1).

This is exactly what promash reports also. However I have 4L of losses in the kettle so in the fermenter I achieved 19L @ 1.055 which is exactly what I wanted. So until I screw up another batch my money is with the batch size being the volume (after boiling & cooling) in the kettle.

So I set it to my required volume + losses in kettle (19L + 4L).


Code:
MALT                  KG             HWE        YIELD	

IMC Ale Malt              3.95          317.42      1253.81	

IMC Munich                0.8           317.42        253.94	

JWM Crystal 140        0.35          292.36        102.33	

JWm Wheat Malt        0.25          334.13          83.53	

JWM Roasted Malt      0.03           267.3             8.02	



Efficiency     75% 	 

Batch Size    23L           OG      1.055
 

wessmith

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Jason, go into the "Water Needed Calc" dialog and you will find all the "lossy" stuff like mash tun and kettle dead space figures. You will need to probably recalibrate some of these numbers but the bottom line is you should have Promash giving you the same cast wort batch size as you calculated less the kettle loss - ie 19 ltrs. You can imagine the problems with a 10HLr (1000 ltr) brewlength if the kettle dead space was not a known factor!

Wes.
 

dicko

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The following quote is taken directly from the Promash Help Menu



Batch Size

Size of the batch the recipe calls for and represents the final volume of beer you intend to achieve. As an example, you receive a recipe that calls for a final volume of 5 Gallons. Thus, 5 Gallons is your batch size.

Note also that the Batch size should NOT be used as a "pre-boil" designation. The pre-boil calculator will determine for you what the pre-boil size should be before boiling and evaporation losses. For details on how pre-boil amounts are calculated see the Pre-Boil Calculator.



Help generated by SOS Help! Info-Author


So yes guys, the batch size is the amount that you want in the fermenter.

Cheers
 

JasonY

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wes, I agree that it should be as you say and I think it was like that before I reinstalled it on my laptop ....

I have set up the losses under the water needed section but I am buggered if I can find anywhere else to designate it .... one day I will fond the damn setting.
 

wessmith

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Jason, one quick thought - do you have it switched to simple or complex mash??

Wes
 

jayse

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The way i have promash setup up the batch size is the size after the boil before any loss to anything is taken out.
Ie batch size is 25 litres which after loss of 4l to equipment and 1l to chilling equals 20 litre to fermentor.

Quote from promash
the batch size, which should be the final size (before adjusting for losses due to kettle deadspace, etc.)

By my manual calcs the batch size is the end of boil not the amount of wort going into the fermentor.
It is giving me the correct calcs according to my manaul calcs.
And i can't find everywhere in promash that allows for you to set the batch size as what you get in the fermentor.


Jayse
 

JasonY

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Wes, I am set up using simple mash.

Jayse, sounds like you are using it as I am ... batch size = size b4 losses in kettle & chillers etc ....
 

wessmith

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OK, try switching to complex - mine is already in complex mode but I'm not sure what differences will be made to the likes of kettle losses.

Wes.
 

jayse

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That makes no difference wes.
The batch size in the recipe is deffintly the size of the wort you make ie whats left at the end of the boil not how much you collect into the fermentor.
You have to take into account losses yourself when setting your batch size.
ie if you want 20litres in the fermentor and know you will lose 5 litres to your equipment the batch size must be set at 25 litres.

If anyone can't trust me on this or still has problems here is a quote from jeff donavon.

quote>
You need to set the Batch size accordingly, and the water needed calculator should help you figure out what that batch size should be.

The Batch Size is the size of the wort after the boil, but before transfering to the fermenter. So, if you come up short in the fermenter due to losses, then you need to make a larger batch size.

For instace, when I brew on the home scale, I loose about 1 gallon from the kettle to the fermenter. Because I want a full 5 gallons in the fermenter, all of my recipes are formulated for 6 gallon batch size.


Hope that clears it up for you, let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Cheers!

- Jeff

end quote>

That makes perfect sense to me. ie batch size is the end of boil size NOT the amount that goes to the fermentor.
You could say it is the amount that goes to the fermentor plus loses aswell
ie 20litres to fermentor plus 5 litres lost equals 25litre batch size.

Jayse
 

JasonY

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The question is Goat do you understand! :) ;) :eek: :ph34r: :unsure:
 

Goat

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I was avoiding that point...... :)

(I think so)
 

dicko

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Well, now I am really confused.

So what you guys are saying is that the statement relating to the Batch Size in the help menu is NOT correct. :( :unsure:

Any comments?
 

JasonY

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I think it is vague enough to be neither correct or incorrect ... just confusing. Until I can find a magic setting I am setting batch size = volume in fermenter + kettle losses.
 

dicko

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OK,

Being a man of open mind I just went and created a recipe using the batch as Jayse suggests. In my case this is 25.5 litres for a fermenter size of 22.0 litres.
Well I will admit that it seems a lot more practical this way.

Now this new revelation has now caused me to have to do another brew this week to see how it goes. :D ;)
Any excuse!!!!!
Cheers
 

jayse

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dicko said:
Batch Size

Size of the batch the recipe calls for and represents the final volume of beer you intend to achieve. As an example, you receive a recipe that calls for a final volume of 5 Gallons. Thus, 5 Gallons is your batch size.

Note also that the Batch size should NOT be used as a "pre-boil" designation. The pre-boil calculator will determine for you what the pre-boil size should be before boiling and evaporation losses. For details on how pre-boil amounts are calculated see the Pre-Boil Calculator.



Help generated by SOS Help! Info-Author



Cheers
No that quote is correct dicko.
It just does not mention that the final wort size you aim to achieve is the volume at the end of the boil not the volume you get in the fermentor.
It makes sense that the wort size for all your calculations should be the size at the end of the boil not what you collect into the fermentor
other wise everything will be out ie if you use 20litres as batch size(thinking thats what you want in the fermentor) for your calcs but in fact at the end of boil you have 25litres which means all colour IBU and gravity calcs should be for the actuall size of the wort at the end of the boil not what you get into the fermentor.

So when you read in the help menu "the final volume you intend to achieve" this means the volume at the end of the boil not the volume you want to acheive in the fermentor.
The volume you get in the fermentor means nothing its up to your system how much you collect from the kettle. What matters is the size of the wort at the end of boil.

So basiclly although the help menu quote may confuse some by not mentioning that, it is certainlly correct. You always think of the final volume of wort you set out to make is the volume at the end of the boil.


does that make sense?
simply the batch size in the recipe does not take into account any loses so you set batch size as the volume of wort you need at the end of boil not what you are aiming to get into the fermentor.
So with the water needed calculator you work out how much wort you lose to your system then add the amount of wort you want in the fermentor both together and that gives you your batch size.

Anyone still confused?

Jayse
 
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