Priming in Keg

[BKBrews]

Hi everyone,

So, technically I'm not a kegger as yet, because my keezer setup is not finished. I have purchased all of the parts and they will be on their way to me over the next fortnight or so. However, in the meantime, I have 2 brews that have just finished primary (14 days and 21 days respectively) that I was either going to:

a) bottle, or;
B) prime in keg

I can't just keg them normally, as I don't have a gas setup to purge them.

I have searched google a thousand times for a keg priming calculator to no avail. I've even just searched the topic and it had come up a few times on here, but no real definitive answer. A lot of people recommended 50% of the sugar required for bottling, but I wanted something more definitive than that.

So does anyone know of a keg priming calculator in existence? I have an IPA and a SMASH ready to go, both of which I'd like about 2.4 volumes of CO2.

Also, does the sugar have to be diluted in boiled water? Or if I'm just putting it all in the keg, can I just fill the keg and dump the dextrose on top?

 

[barls]

i normally halve the sugar needed and find this works pretty well for me.
i also measure and then use boiling water and put in the bottom of the keg

 

[LAGERFRENZY]

About half as much sugar or dext that you would use for bottling is the consensus on this old thread:

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/51832-priming-a-keg-with-sugar/

 

[user 31093]

I've only done this a couple of times but as these guys ^ have said, 1/2 it and it seems to go just fine.

Make sure you chill it down before you check the pressure, at higher temp it's gonna foam up like a mofo but it'll likely also be flat.

 

[BKBrews]

Definitely won't be using it until it has been chilled in the kezer and ready to serve.

Looks like I'll need about 65 - 70g for the 19 litre kegs to reach 2.4 volumes. Will this create enough gas to remove the oxygen in the keg? Like I said, I have no way of purging once filled. Do I burp it quite early on? I'm assuming burping too far into the process will undo the purpose of priming the keg.

 

[peteru]

Don't fret too much. Drop in about 50g of dextrose, fill the keg right up to the gas tube and leave at room temperature for a week or two. Don't bother with burping. You can chill when your setup is ready and if required top up with CO2 (once cold) to get the carbonation to where you want it.

Remember, the amount of CO2 dissolved in beer depends on temperature, so only adjust the CO2 pressure once the keg has been at the target temperature for at least 24 hours.

 

[pcqypcqy]

Definitely won't be using it until it has been chilled in the kezer and ready to serve.

Looks like I'll need about 65 - 70g for the 19 litre kegs to reach 2.4 volumes. Will this create enough gas to remove the oxygen in the keg? Like I said, I have no way of purging once filled. Do I burp it quite early on? I'm assuming burping too far into the process will undo the purpose of priming the keg.

Just to be pedantic, if the keg is sealed you can't 'remove' the oxygen, it'll always be there, just at much reduced concentration in the available gas because there's that much more CO2 there now as well.

I know you're not equipped to purge yet, but this is why people recommend it as you can displace the oxygen containing air first, and then put your beer into the keg with very little O2 left in it. That said, I don't always purge and I find it hasn't reduced the life of my kegs noticably as I'm drinking them before this become an issue.

 

[BKBrews]

Just to be pedantic, if the keg is sealed you can't 'remove' the oxygen, it'll always be there, just at much reduced concentration in the available gas because there's that much more CO2 there now as well.

I know you're not equipped to purge yet, but this is why people recommend it as you can displace the oxygen containing air first, and then put your beer into the keg with very little O2 left in it. That said, I don't always purge and I find it hasn't reduced the life of my kegs noticably as I'm drinking them before this become an issue.

I don't really understand that whole filling with CO2 prior to filling. Don't you fill the keg through the lid hole, ensuring O2 gets back in anyway?

I'm going to try it anyway, will see how we go. Fill to gas tube and close. Got it.

 

[Rocker1986]

CO2 is heavier than air, so even if you open the lid of the keg to fill it, it won't be displaced by air. My usual process is to sanitise the keg then hook it up to my spare gas line until it's pressurised, and when I'm ready to fill it, bleed the pressure out, open the lid, insert the hose and slowly transfer the beer. Once it's full the lid is obviously put back in/on, the keg is then taken to the spare line again and the headspace purged of air, and the keg left to sit on gas for a couple of hours just to get a little in there.

I've had them sit for a number of weeks after this before being put on tap without any problems at all.

I think some do fill the kegs through the liquid disconnect, but I haven't used this method yet.

 

[peteru]

CO2 is heavier than "air", so if done properly, CO2 will settle towards the bottom of the keg. Once you start filling the keg with beer from the bottom, the beer will sit under the CO2 and you will get layers. Beer on bottom, then a cover of CO2, then air. As the beer rises up, it will push all the layers up as well. The idea is that the CO2 layer is thick enough that once the keg is full, all you have left is the beer and CO2 layers, but none of the air layer.

 

[user 31093]

CO2 does not form the mythical blanket and will diffuse with the rest of the air.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/can-co2-form-a-blanket/

CO2 is heavier than "air", so if done properly, CO2 will settle towards the bottom of the keg.

CO2 is heavier than air, so even if you open the lid of the keg to fill it, it won't be displaced by air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oLPBnhOCjM

 

[mckenry]

CO2 does not form the mythical blanket and will diffuse with the rest of the air.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/can-co2-form-a-blanket/

And if it did, we'd all be dead.

 

[peteru]

As the article says and I've said, "if done properly", the CO2 from a pressurised bottle can be used to reduce exposure to oxygen during keg filling. The article also points out what I said, if you seal the keg with air in it and let the yeast produce the CO2, there's no point in burping the keg.

 

[user 31093]

As the article says and I've said, "if done properly", the CO2 from a pressurised bottle can be used to reduce exposure to oxygen during keg filling. The article also points out what I said, if you seal the keg with air in it and let the yeast produce the CO2, there's no point in burping the keg.

Get ya but the idea people get is that CO2 is to air like mercury is to water and just hangs out at the bottom of whatever container it's in.
For the purposes of this discussion, the yeast will chew up whatever CO2 is in the head space of a keg - collectively a lot less than if you were to bottle.


Edit: caveat being of course if you have those ****** seals that only seal properly under pressure. In which case you should probably throw them away and get some new silicone ones and lube up.

 

[BKBrews]

on the subject of lubing, where do you need to lube? I assumed you lube the gas and liquid posts (inside as well)? where do you lube the lids? under the o-ring?

 

[peteru]

Pretty much any surface that needs to seal or sees friction. Lube the poppets, posts, the large silicone o-ring around the lid, the boots on the feet of the lid / area under feet. It's also a good idea to take apart the PRV every now and then to clean it and lube it.

 

[BKBrews]

the boots on the feet of the lid / area under feet

I'm not sure I understand what this is?

 

[peteru]

I'm not sure I understand what this is?

The lid has a lever to lock it into place. The bit you lift is the handle and the other ends are the feet. Those feet have boots on them and these slide on the top surface of the keg as you lock the lid into place.

 

[Rocker1986]

I'm gonna have to start lubing those feet.. some of my lids are a bitch to get on and off at the moment. Didn't even think of doing that, thanks for the tip.

Anyway, yes the CO2 won't necessarily form a blanket like that, thanks for the correction there (thinking about it yes we would all be dead if it did do that) but I think purging the air out of the keg then filling it with CO2 would have to reduce the exposure of air to the beer than simply filling the keg without doing that. In my process it's all done in about 10 minutes from the point of burping the keg and opening it, to getting the lid back on and purging the headspace.

 

[Crakkers]

One problem you might encounter is the keg not sealing properly as you don't have the gas setup yet to pressurise the keg.
If the lid doesn't seal properly, any CO2 produced by the secondary fermentation could leak out, leaving you with a flat and potentially infected beer if any nasties find their way inside.

 

[peteru]

One problem you might encounter is the keg not sealing properly as you don't have the gas setup yet to pressurise the keg.
If the lid doesn't seal properly, any CO2 produced by the secondary fermentation could leak out, leaving you with a flat and potentially infected beer if any nasties find their way inside.

If you do end up with an infection, it's not going to be due to a seal failure on the lid. It's not like bacteria will somehow crawl in through an air gap, especially if there is only a tiny leak due to pressure inside. Flat beer would be a disappointment, but it's probably a better option than a whole bottle of CO2 lost due to a slow leak.

If your lids are not sealing properly, pay attention to the lid alignment, lube the o-ring and if necessary replace the o-ring with a new one. If your kegs are so beaten up you can't get the lids to seal even with the above, then perhaps it's time to retire those kegs, or at least re-purpose them.

 

[BKBrews]

I'm not overly worried about the beer being under-carbed, as I plan on putting this on gas once I'm setup. The main idea behind priming the keg is to try and remove as much oxygen from the keg as I can, so that I can store the keg for a few weeks until my keg system is up and running.

 

[user 31093]

I'm not overly worried about the beer being under-carbed, as I plan on putting this on gas once I'm setup. The main idea behind priming the keg is to try and remove as much oxygen from the keg as I can, so that I can store the keg for a few weeks until my keg system is up and running.

If you're doing it to save gas from your bottle which I presume you are - over carbing a fraction isn't such a bad thing as you can purge it off without wasting any of the gas from your bottle, where as if you go under you'll use some gas albeit a small amount.

 

[user 31093]

I poured a beer that I primed, I've had it chilled a little over a week - crystal clear, one of the clearest I've had in such a short time. Admittedly this is with S04 which is darn a good floccer but I don't think that the amount of sediment you get in a keg really differs all that much between force carb and otherwise.

 

[BKBrews]

If you're doing it to save gas from your bottle which I presume you are - over carbing a fraction isn't such a bad thing as you can purge it off without wasting any of the gas from your bottle, where as if you go under you'll use some gas albeit a small amount.

Nah, doing it because I don't have a gas bottle yet. I've just purchased a freezer and kegs, but my taps, disconnects, beer line, regulator, bottle etc have been ordered and are on their way (probably won't be here until end of next week at the earliest).

 

[pcmfisher]

I'm not overly worried about the beer being under-carbed, as I plan on putting this on gas once I'm setup. The main idea behind priming the keg is to try and remove as much oxygen from the keg as I can, so that I can store the keg for a few weeks until my keg system is up and running.

Yes, undercarbing is ok. Like someone suggested, 50g to keep the lid sealed then when you put it in the fridge and hook up the gas, your serving pressure will determine your carbonation level.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the oxygen if you are naturally carbing, the yeast will take care of it.
After all, those that bottle don't generally get rid of the oxygen when naturally carbing and have no problems.

 

[user 31093]

Kegging a double batch tomorrow and only room to force carb one at the minute - it's had a dose of gelatin, reckon I'll prime one force carb the other and see how each go.

 

[BKBrews]

Can't tell you how mine are doing, but I primed them both with 60g in 350ml water and added to the keg. Hope they work out!