Pressure Fermenting in CUB Ball lock keg

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Hey Darren. I've made a couple of pressure fermenters out of 50lt kegs but have converted them to ball lock posts with a floating dip tube. I release the pressure first then cut the centre out of the top so I can fit a corny keg lid in there and use two bulk head ball lock posts. Costs about 50 bux in parts. The bigger hole in the top makes it easier to give it a light scrub if needed and can see inside easily. I have a guten and fill it using the pump with the fermenter already in the fermenting fridge so don't need to lift it full. Does a good job. Use a spunding valve for lagers and a gas disconnect with some beer line going to a jar of sanitizer for ales. I remove the gas disconnect with a couple of gravity points to go and it naturally carbonates.

Thanks dibbz
I would be super concerned about me being able to cut the top out of the keg so that it would perfectly for the cornie lid. How did you do it. Also, there are adapters you can get but you still have the problem of only a small opening. Due to my simple mind, I would like to have the 50L keg with disconnects and release valve the same as the corny ones.


I am getting a feeling that I may be able to clean the barrels adequately with oxidizing solutions but really love the variety of ideas. Hydrogen peroxide is such an agent but I am not sure if I would need to mix up an entire 50 liters to be effective. 50 liters at 3% would be bloody expensive so there must be other agents and-or solutions.

CBBE

 

[Grmblz]

Hydrogen peroxide + 304 stainless steel = pitting (corrosion, little pin holes) not a good idea.
CIP spray ball as linked to earlier, PBW followed by starsan or similar.
If feeling brave (stupid) hot caustic, just make sure your hazmat suit is done up nice and tight.

 

[Grmblz]

Yeah I've gone A-type for the reason you mention. Plenty of smaller versions, I'm running 20L and 10L A-type kegs (Blefa, via Keg Services, no affiliation etc.). At least one of the Keg-somethings stocks 20L kegs with choice of A/D-type spears too, but I decided to go German quality for a smallish cost premium.

Only issue with A-type is there's no low-profile coupler options (that I'm aware of, anyway - and I've been looking) so they're taller than equivalent corny or D-type kegs.

Thank you how the hell did I miss that, roughly how much were the BLEFA kegs? There's no pricing on their web site.
How much taller? I use upright freezers and have a fair bit of head room, can imagine it's more of an issue with a keezer.

 

[bird]

I would be super concerned about me being able to cut the top out of the keg so that it would perfectly for the cornie lid. How did you do it. Also, there are adapters you can get but you still have the problem of only a small opening. Due to my simple mind, I would like to have the 50L keg with disconnects and release valve the same as the corny keg

I just made a cardboard template of the hole of a corny keg marked it out on the 50lt keg and cut it out with a grinder and 1mm blade. Don't try and cut through all the way at the start just slowly work around The hole till your all the way through. Flap disk and a bit of sandpaper smooths it out nicely. Doesn't have to be exact my first one was pretty rough and it still seals well.

 

[Meddo]

Thank you how the hell did I miss that, roughly how much were the BLEFA kegs? There's no pricing on their web site.
How much taller? I use upright freezers and have a fair bit of head room, can imagine it's more of an issue with a keezer.

You can flick them an email for a quote/price, they get back to you pretty quickly but from memory the 10s and 20s were about $135-140 each. Good shipping rates too, about $10/keg. The 20L A-type plus coupler (connected) needs about 675 mm vertical (don't quote me on that - it's "about" ).

 

[Meddo]

Looks like the KL version has come down in price a bit so the difference is more than it was when I purchased from KS, there's pretty significant differences in warranty and pressure rating as well though.

 

[Grmblz]

Looks like the KL version has come down in price a bit so the difference is more than it was when I purchased from KS, there's pretty significant differences in warranty and pressure rating as well though.

Thanks for that mate, Keg Services got back to me, $152 for the 10L/20L slim (same price for either) and $82 for the coupler, compared to KL $101 for the keg (on sale from $121) and $36 for the coupler, so it's $237 compared to $137.
We're not comparing apples with apples of course, German materials and engineering v Chinese.
In a commercial environment it's a no brainer but for a homebrewer/hobbyist on a budget it becomes a bit more difficult.
I look at my old cornies (had them 25yrs+) and there's no comparison between them and a mates new Chinese ones, but the new ones do the job.
I'm tempted to buy one of each, and compare but I know where that will go, and I'll be stuck with a cheap one I never use.
Damn I wish I could win lotto (probably have to buy a ticket first though)

 

[Meddo]

Thanks for that mate, Keg Services got back to me, $152 for the 10L/20L slim (same price for either) and $82 for the coupler, compared to KL $101 for the keg (on sale from $121) and $36 for the coupler, so it's $237 compared to $137.
We're not comparing apples with apples of course, German materials and engineering v Chinese.
In a commercial environment it's a no brainer but for a homebrewer/hobbyist on a budget it becomes a bit more difficult.
I look at my old cornies (had them 25yrs+) and there's no comparison between them and a mates new Chinese ones, but the new ones do the job.
I'm tempted to buy one of each, and compare but I know where that will go, and I'll be stuck with a cheap one I never use.
Damn I wish I could win lotto (probably have to buy a ticket first though)

I bought some of the DSI couplers from keg services and also some of the KL ones and the latter are fine, don't think I'd bother paying the premium for DSI if/when I need more. So I'd suggest saving cash on the couplers and spend on the kegs instead if you see the cost/benefit there.

The KL couplers are very similar to Micromatic ones, except the latter have larger bores in the gas ports, so I use a couple of secondhand Micromatics on my keg washer to keep the flow rates up coming out of the kegs.

Sorry for going off topic Darren...

 

[Grmblz]

Ahhh, that's good to know, so it's $174 v $137, much better numbers, and Christmas just round the corner, how fortuitous.
Yes, sorry about hijacking your thread DtD but as you can probably tell, I'm very excitement right now.

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

I just made a cardboard template of the hole of a corny keg marked it out on the 50lt keg and cut it out with a grinder and 1mm blade. Don't try and cut through all the way at the start just slowly work around The hole till your all the way through. Flap disk and a bit of sandpaper smooths it out nicely. Doesn't have to be exact my first one was pretty rough and it still seals well.

Thanks Bird. You are way steadier and talented than me. I am thinking now to just pop out the ball lock to clean the keg and replace it. I will use the cornie keg disconnects and all should be good. I am about to put up a post now about obtaining large quantities of the PBW or some other oxidizing agent so that I can fill the 50 liters and allow the agent to dissolve any crud still in the keg

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

I bought some of the DSI couplers from keg services and also some of the KL ones and the latter are fine, don't think I'd bother paying the premium for DSI if/when I need more. So I'd suggest saving cash on the couplers and spend on the kegs instead if you see the cost/benefit there.

The KL couplers are very similar to Micromatic ones, except the latter have larger bores in the gas ports, so I use a couple of secondhand Micromatics on my keg washer to keep the flow rates up coming out of the kegs.

Sorry for going off topic Darren...

Not at all. This is what this site is all about

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Ahhh, that's good to know, so it's $174 v $137, much better numbers, and Christmas just round the corner, how fortuitous.
Yes, sorry about hijacking your thread DtD but as you can probably tell, I'm very excitement right now.

Ha ha. No problemo at all my friend. I feel santa may get a specific request from you this year!!!

 

[bird]

Thanks Bird. You are way steadier and talented than me. I am thinking now to just pop out the ball lock to clean the keg and replace it. I will use the cornie keg disconnects and all should be good. I am about to put up a post now about obtaining large quantities of the PBW or some other oxidizing agent so that I can fill the 50 liters and allow the agent to dissolve any crud still in the keg

I found a chemical supplier in townsville and get 25kg bags of sodium percarbonate for about hundred dollars. Works out pretty cheap.

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

I found a chemical supplier in townsville and get 25kg bags of sodium percarbonate for about hundred dollars. Works out pretty cheap.

Great thanks. Is that the stuff that I would use in stead of PBW

 

[bird]

Great thanks. Is that the stuff that I would use in stead of PBW

I believe so. It's what I have always used to clean stuff.

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

I believe so. It's what I have always used to clean stuff.

Great. I am already on the hunt for some in my part of the country (Vic). Thanks Mr Bird

 

[Grmblz]

Thanks Bird. You are way steadier and talented than me. I am thinking now to just pop out the ball lock to clean the keg and replace it. I will use the cornie keg disconnects and all should be good. I am about to put up a post now about obtaining large quantities of the PBW or some other oxidizing agent so that I can fill the 50 liters and allow the agent to dissolve any crud still in the keg

The big boys use hot caustic (draino) followed by fresh water rinse then acid wash (starsan) but for Christs sake be careful with hot caustic, safety goggles an absolute minimum, face shield much better.

Five star chemicals (the guy that invented/marketed all this starsan/pbw stuff) has this info for containers.

Chemical Procedures
- Burst Rinse or rinse tanks with potable water (automatic CIP = rinse for 30sec, wait 30sec, rinse 30sec, etc.. for 5 min)
- Fill tank with enough water to produce a steady supply to the CIP pump. Cavitation will cause poor performance and foaming issues.
- Wash vessel with 1%-2% alkali cleaner (PBW) at temp range of 100*-160* F for 20-30 minutes. Concentration and temp will depend on type of CIP in place or pump
- Burst Rinse for 5 minutes with potable water immediately - DO NOT let alkali cleaner (PBW) dry on hot metal surfaces.
- Drain solution and Rinse vessel with nitric/phosphoric acid blend at room temp for 15 minutes.
- Allow to air dry - this will have multiple effects such as neutralizing any remaining alkali, passivating of stainless, and prevention of bacterial growth
- If immediate sanitation is NOT required, allow tank to air dry after acid rinse. Leaving vessel in acid condition will prevent bacteria growth.
- If immediate sanitation is required, rinse vessel with water, then sanitize with low-foaming acid anionic (saniclean), drain and allow to air dry

and this for kegs

Rinse out keg thoroughly with hot water to remove excess soils
- Wash with non-caustic (pbw) at 1% concentration from 2-5 min at 130*F
- Rinse with hot water
- Rinse with sanitizer, acid anionic (starsan or similar) at 1oz per 3 gallons of water for one minute will create 200ppm solution providing excellent residual value

I think the keg info assumes it's pretty clean already, your crusty old things (kegs that is ) probably need a good soak, when you get the spears out have a good look inside, and if grotty I'd go VERY! carefully with a hot caustic overnight soak, hot rinse, hot PBW overnight soak, hot rinse, and if it looks spotless then a starsan/sani-clean soak/rinse.
Don't forget the threads (where the spear screws in) keep the keg topped up, as it cools the water level will drop, the ball lock adapter I linked to earlier seals on the top of the neck so any gribblies in the threads will infect your beer.

Cheers G