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Pilsner Urquell

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Trippers

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Hi there, below is my first draft of my PU clone. I am not sure whether or not i need to do the decoctions or if being able to step mash via my HERMS will be sufficient. From the reading ive done on the net and the forum im still not convinced its worth the trouble. Any feedback regarding the recipe would be great. Also wondering what the Melbourne water is like do i need to soften it or should it be ok for this beer? Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Ive also checked out the current AHB threads but struggled to find info re water and decoctions.
Cheers

Pilsner Urquell
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 28/08/2012
Style: Bohemian Pilsner Brewer: TRIPPERS BAR & BREWERY
Batch Size: 55.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 76.61 L Boil Time: 120 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 % Equipment: TRIPPERS BREWERY
Actual Efficiency: 15.5 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.00 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) Grain 98.0 %
0.23 kg Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.0 %
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (120 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 16.1 IBU
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (80 min) Hops 14.2 IBU
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (25 min) Hops 9.3 IBU
1 Pkgs Urquell Lager (Wyeast Labs #2001) Yeast-Lager

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.048 SG (1.044-1.056 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.012 SG (1.013-1.017 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Color: 3.5 SRM (3.0-5.0 SRM) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 39.6 IBU (35.0-45.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 2.0 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.7 % (4.0-5.3 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 0.6 %
Actual Calories: 90 cal/l


Mash Profile Name: My Mash Mash Tun Weight: 12.00 kg
Mash Grain Weight: 11.22 kg Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 22.2 C Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C
Sparge Water: 62.60 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Step Add 25.26 L of water at 13.8 C 15.0 C 30 min
Step Heat to 35.0 C over 20 min 35.0 C 40 min
Step Heat to 53.0 C over 30 min 53.0 C 10 min
Step Heat to 62.0 C over 20 min 62.0 C 40 min
Step Heat to 73.0 C over 20 min 73.0 C 10 min
Step Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C 10 min
 

Nick JD

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If you are not decocting, then to get a similar (but different) melanoidin flavour and colour you need between 5 and 10% melanoidin in your bill. Also, a touch of carabohemian helps with both maltiness and colour.

Oh, and you should use Bohemian Pilsner grain. It's got that special boh pils flavour that's hard to describe, but you'll know it when you mill the grain.

Manticle is the man for Melb water - but you want it really quite soft. GC water out of the tap is pretty similar to Plzen.
 

mxd

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melbourne water is nice and soft so shouldn't be an issue.

Are you adding water for the step mashes ? If not maybe a little more at the start as it looks like it will be very thick.
 

manticle

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No real need to soften the water. Melbourne water is very soft. Either use as is or add some calcium chloride for calcium levels and malt profile.

If you're into measuring/adjusting mash pH, you'd be looking at a small acid addition with mostly pale malt.

I'm a big fan of decoctions myself (they do more than just steps will) and I've never used melanoiden but it's supposed to give similar character. If you decide to decoct, you could probably drop out the melanoidens.

Steps look good.

You going to build the yeast up? You'll need to (or use more packs).

Fermentation schedule for the real thing starts quite low as far as I know and is slowly allowed to rise. Something like 4 degrees, rising to 9 over the course of primary.

I've read that some of its 'character' comes from being removed from the yeast slightly early (obviously filtered) - not sure this is something I would try and replicate at home. My recent bo pils attempt had a fair whack of diacetyl towards the end so I deliberately kept it on the yeast at warmer temps to remove it. That worked but then acetaldhyde was noticeable so I left it longer before lagering. Works fine - just need to be patient. Think I chucked a bit of munich in my recent one, just to get it more in line with Budvar or Kruscovice* than with urquell too.

* My idea of those rather than attempted clones.
 

Trippers

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No real need to soften the water. Melbourne water is very soft. Either use as is or add some calcium chloride for calcium levels and malt profile.

If you're into measuring/adjusting mash pH, you'd be looking at a small acid addition with mostly pale malt.

I'm a big fan of decoctions myself (they do more than just steps will) and I've never used melanoiden but it's supposed to give similar character. If you decide to decoct, you could probably drop out the melanoidens.

Steps look good.

You going to build the yeast up? You'll need to (or use more packs).

Fermentation schedule for the real thing starts quite low as far as I know and is slowly allowed to rise. Something like 4 degrees, rising to 9 over the course of primary.

I've read that some of its 'character' comes from being removed from the yeast slightly early (obviously filtered) - not sure this is something I would try and replicate at home. My recent bo pils attempt had a fair whack of diacetyl towards the end so I deliberately kept it on the yeast at warmer temps to remove it. That worked but then acetaldhyde was noticeable so I left it longer before lagering. Works fine - just need to be patient. Think I chucked a bit of munich in my recent one, just to get it more in line with Budvar or Kruscovice* than with urquell too.

* My idea of those rather than attempted clones.
Cheers mate, will def buiild up a starter. Mr Malty Calc suggests 842 Billion cells and a 4.86lt starter on the stirplate. Does that sound about right for 55 litres? Would be great to get you around for the brew mate and we can have a beer and do the decoctions. Then you can grab your hops. Let me know mate. Recipe looks ok otherwise?
Cheers
 

Mikedub

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I'm brewing my first boh pils this weekend, just made the starter, any thoughts about this recipe?

Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Estimated Color: 8.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 35.1 IBUs


Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.20 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 92.0 %
0.25 kg Melanoiden Malt (39.4 EBC) Grain 2 4.4 %
0.20 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 3 3.5 %
22.50 g Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 18.8 IBUs
60.00 g Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 14.3 IBUs
1 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
25.00 g Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 2.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP8 Yeast 8 -
mash @ 66
 

SJW

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I would build up about 10 litres of starter for one Urquell yeast. But what I do when making this style of beer is brew a low gravity Pale Lager first then rinse the yeast and pitch 500mls of thick fresh yeast. It takes a bit of planning but well worth the effort. I just bewed a light Boh Pil with the seasonal Munich 2 yeast, rinsed the yeast and pitched 500mls of the thick slurry at 5 deg C. Went off very nice. Also its a good idea to crash chill a litre or so of wort after the boil and add to the 500mls of yeast to fire it up.
Also allow for a nice long, low boil for this one.
Also just 60min and 30min Saaz additions to 40 IBU's if u want to be close as possible.

Have a read of this. http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/libr....3/urquell.html
The information contained in the link is from thE vice president of sales and marketing, Pilsner Urquell and Pavel Prucha (quality control manager, Pilsner Urquell)

Steve
 

Trippers

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I would build up about 10 litres of starter for one Urquell yeast. But what I do when making this style of beer is brew a low gravity Pale Lager first then rinse the yeast and pitch 500mls of thick fresh yeast. It takes a bit of planning but well worth the effort. I just bewed a light Boh Pil with the seasonal Munich 2 yeast, rinsed the yeast and pitched 500mls of the thick slurry at 5 deg C. Went off very nice. Also its a good idea to crash chill a litre or so of wort after the boil and add to the 500mls of yeast to fire it up.
Also allow for a nice long, low boil for this one.
Also just 60min and 30min Saaz additions to 40 IBU's if u want to be close as possible.

Steve
Thanks for the feedback mate. How many litres of beer do you make at a time. 10 Lt starter woh!! but ill do what i have to do? How many billion cells is that?
 

drsmurto

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My latest bo pils is currently on tap.

100% Wey Pilsner malt, Magnum for bittering (35 IBU total) and then 1g/L saaz at 15 and 0. Rainwater (analysed with <0.1 ppm of all the relevant brewing salts) with CaCl2 added to 50 ppm of Ca.

I use WL833 german bock yeast as i find it leads to a more malt driven beer than any of the czech lager yeasts i have used (WY2000, 2001, 2124, 2278)

I did 2 thick decoctions (52 - 63 - 71) followed by a thin decoction mashout - 78. The first decoction got a 15 min rest at 65, another 15 min rest at 70 and then boiled for 20 mins. Added back and left for 60 mins. Next decoction got the same minus the first rest.

All up was a 9 hour brewday that i thoroughly enjoyed. 4 week primary ferment @9C plus a diacetyl rest and then 3+ months lagering.

I don't use melanoiden anymore as the result is not the same as a decoction (IMO) plus I enjoy decoctions and the resulting flavours they contribute to a beer.

Dodgy arty photo attached.

bo_pils.jpg
 

dicko

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My latest bo pils is currently on tap.

100% Wey Pilsner malt, Magnum for bittering (35 IBU total) and then 1g/L saaz at 15 and 0. Rainwater (analysed with <0.1 ppm of all the relevant brewing salts) with CaCl2 added to 50 ppm of Ca.

I use WL833 german bock yeast as i find it leads to a more malt driven beer than any of the czech lager yeasts i have used (WY2000, 2001, 2124, 2278)

I did 2 thick decoctions (52 - 63 - 71) followed by a thin decoction mashout - 78. The first decoction got a 15 min rest at 65, another 15 min rest at 70 and then boiled for 20 mins. Added back and left for 60 mins. Next decoction got the same minus the first rest.

All up was a 9 hour brewday that i thoroughly enjoyed. 4 week primary ferment @9C plus a diacetyl rest and then 3+ months lagering.

I don't use melanoiden anymore as the result is not the same as a decoction (IMO) plus I enjoy decoctions and the resulting flavours they contribute to a beer.

Dodgy arty photo attached.

View attachment 56738
That is one good looking beer.

If it tastes as good as it looks Smurto, you would have a winner there.

Cheers
 

Nick JD

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My latest bo pils is currently on tap.

100% Wey Pilsner malt, Magnum for bittering (35 IBU total) and then 1g/L saaz at 15 and 0. Rainwater (analysed with <0.1 ppm of all the relevant brewing salts) with CaCl2 added to 50 ppm of Ca.
Looks the goods. Why don't you use Boh Pils grain?
 

SJW

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Thanks for the feedback mate. How many litres of beer do you make at a time. 10 Lt starter woh!! but ill do what i have to do? How many billion cells is that?
Thats just the yeast from building up and decanting off a total of 10 litres. Like I said a 20 litre starter is better, ie, slurry from a full brew. This is only nessesary for a cold pitch. Otherwise I would just build up my normal yeast stored with 2 litres of 1.450 wort. And I normally store about 3cm in the bottom of Grolsch swing top bottle.
 

Trippers

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That is one good looking beer.

If it tastes as good as it looks Smurto, you would have a winner there.

Cheers
Great looking beer, im starting to lean towards doing a couple of decoctions are there some good links/threads at to how to do it accurately. Im a little confused as to how much grain and mash to boil and how to do it. I have a bout 11.5kg of grain in the mash. Do i just scoop some out and boil, then re add to mash. Sorry for the silly Q's but im still trying to get my head around the Decoction process. IF i do the decoctions ill drop the melanoidon all together and go 100% Boh Pils.
Cheers
 

Nick JD

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The Kaiser vill help you.

 
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Batz

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My last attempt at a Pilsner Urquell, it's crystal clear the glass is frosted in the pic.

DSCF2790.JPG

Yes I use 100% Boh Pils malt and a decoction of course. I made two kegs and have finished one the other is over 4 months old now, I want to keep it for a nice steamy Xmas Day.

batz
 

manticle

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Cheers mate, will def buiild up a starter. Mr Malty Calc suggests 842 Billion cells and a 4.86lt starter on the stirplate. Does that sound about right for 55 litres? Would be great to get you around for the brew mate and we can have a beer and do the decoctions. Then you can grab your hops. Let me know mate. Recipe looks ok otherwise?
Cheers
I'd be well up for it. Depends a little on when you plan to do it though. I should have moved house by early October (Fairfield) or possibly the end of September. We've signed the lease but have a lot to pack/throw away so it will take us a bit and weekends are mostly devoted to packing/cleaning until the big move.

Decoctions are pretty simple - once you've done one, you see how easy it is. Does involve a bit of stirring and monitoring but the smell keeps you enthusiastic.

For starter size, I reckon I'd be looking at 6-8 L for a double batch, especially if pitching cold. I'd use 3-4L for single batch. 3/6 are absolute minimums. However I don't use a stirplate so you'll probably get better growth using one - I just feed wort and shake

Recipe and hopping schedule all looks good to me. Make sure your saaz is super fresh.
 

Nick JD

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Not sure why I haven't to be honest. :p

I'm not trying to clone a particular beer and i use wey pils for a range of beers.

Perhaps it's time i had a play with it.
To my nose, it's got that signature Boh Pils flavour. Hard to explain - almost a very, very slight funkiness/earthiness. I think a lot of people mistake the grain character for something in the Saaz.
 

Trippers

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Hi all, I have decided to go with a triple decoction, ive done some readind and it suggests substantially longer rests during the mash, compared to the default triple decoction mash schedule provided from Beersmith.

How long should i hold each rest? The text i have suggests the following as opposed to the time schedules listed at the bottom of the recipe. Any suggestion would be great. Obviously the shorter rests are more desirable, but i am happy to do a 4hr mash if it will improve the malt profile of the beer and get it as close to PU as possible.

Acid Rest 35 degrees- 90mins
Protein Rest 50 degrees- 80mins
Saccrification 65 degrees- 65mins
Mashout75 degrees- 10min

All rests will be held at 70 degrees for 15 mins on the way to boiling the decoction

Pilsner Urquell
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 28/08/2012
Style: Bohemian Pilsner Brewer: TRIPPERS BAR & BREWERY
Batch Size: 55.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 76.61 L Boil Time: 120 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 % Equipment: TRIPPERS BREWERY
Actual Efficiency: 15.2 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.50 kg Pilsner (Bohpils) (1.7 SRM) Grain 100.0 %
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (120 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 16.0 IBU
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (80 min) Hops 14.1 IBU
70.00 gm Saaz [4.00%] (25 min) Hops 9.3 IBU
1 Pkgs Urquell Lager (Wyeast Labs #2001) Yeast-Lager

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.050 SG (1.044-1.056 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.012 SG (1.013-1.017 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Color: 3.1 SRM (3.0-5.0 SRM) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 39.3 IBU (35.0-45.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 2.0 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.8 % (4.0-5.3 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 0.6 %
Actual Calories: 90 cal/l


Mash Profile Name: Decoction Mash, Triple Mash Tun Weight: 12.00 kg
Mash Grain Weight: 11.50 kg Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 22.2 C Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C
Sparge Water: 62.25 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Acid Rest Add 25.87 L of water at 37.2 C 35.0 C 45 min
Protein Rest Decoct 10.27 L of mash and boil it 55.0 C 60 min
Saccharification Decoct 7.00 L of mash and boil it 64.4 C 15 min
Saccharification Decoct 5.21 L of mash and boil it 70.0 C 15 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C 10 min


Mash Notes
Authentic Germany mash schedule. Attempt to draw decoction from the thickest portion of the mash. Some sources recommend that each decoction amount be given a 15 minute saccharification rest at 158 F (70 C) before boiling it.
 

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