not easily. He has dedicated fermenters for brett stuff, even after bleach and iodophor soaks they brett still gets through.
neonmate, where did you hear that wlp510 is the primary? and every orval-dreg fermented beer I've tasted has a big whack of sourness, can that come from brett? I just assumed it was lacto.
bastogne wlp510 is sourced from orval, pretty common knowledge. bastogne is the area of wallonia, south-east Belgium, where Orval is.
sourness does come from brett, given the right strain and conditions, although not as much as lacto and pedio can produce.
have a read of brew like a monk, and search around on the internet for orval clones.
here is a bunch of stuff i've cut and pasted from various websites with some pretty good info (run the dutch stuff through google if you can't work it out!)
By matt_dinges (64.154.121.101) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:20 am: Edit
I got an email from somebody going under "Pearl Street Brewery" requesting my Orval recipe. I emptied my junk mail before I grabbed it out, so hopefully this reaches you. Here are the relavent comments:
Paul Edwards wrote:
I've posted this to hbd a few times:
I visited Orval in 1995, had a wondeful tour. Didn't get any yeast
samples but did get a printed handout that includes spec's for this
great beer.
- ------------------------
Original Gravity: 13.4 deg Plato
Color: 22 EBC
Bitterness: 32 EBC
(can somebody translate these last two to SRM and IBU?)
Malt is French, Dutch and German
Pale Lager malt 86.5 percent
Caravienne 13.5 percent
Kettle Hops are Hallertau and Styrian Goldings.
Orval is dry hopped with Styrian Goldings
Chipped pale candi sugar is used in the kettle (no amount given)
Bottles are primed with liquid invert sugar
Yeast:
An ale strain is used in the primary fermenter
5 different yeasts are added to the secondary (no specific info, except
that I was told one of them was a Brettanomyces Strain)
The primary fermenter yeast strain is used for bottling.
Beer is bottle-conditioned for 6 weeks prior to release to market.
Drink & cellaring Temperature: 12 to 14 deg C (53 to 57 deg F)
Sell-by date: 5 years after bottling
Adam W wrote:
Now for the definitive answer for those wishing to clone Orval....
The WL Bastogne strain was obtained at ORVAL for Chris White by a member of my homebrew club (Long Beach Homebrewers), Don van Valkenburg. It is indeed the primary strain.
Myself and several other members of the club have successfully cloned the beer. It tastes almost exactly like fresh Orval, at a small fraction of the cost. We used information from the Orval website, the great information from Paul Edwards' HBD posts, and the lambic digest discussion from 1996 to formulate the recipe.
The key to developing the Orval flavor is to use Brett. Bruxellensis in the secondary. A shampoo-tube of Wyeast 3112 per five gallons works perfectly. As far as I'm concerned, any other S. cerevisiae strains that they may add to secondary are irrelavant and contribute little to the final flavor. It is also important to add fresh primary yeast at bottling.
I have also cultured the B. bruxellensis and it grows very easily on 2% calcium carbonate plates and slants. If you are adept at yeast culturing, then growing Brett is very easy. The only tricky part is pouring the plates and slants so that the CaCO3 remains in suspension. Be warned though, Brett looks like snot when growing on a plate. It is not very appetizing!
My recipe for 7 gallon primary fermentation, 6.5 gallons in secondary:
Grain Bill (adjust for your efficiency):
9.6 lbs Belgian pilsner
1.5 lbs Belgian Caravienne
1 lb table sugar
O.G. 1.060
Hops (all pellets):
2 oz. 5.2% Hallertau for 75 minutes
1 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings for 20 minutes
1 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings for 5 minutes
2 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings dry-hopped
Yeast:
1 L starter of WL Bastogne in primary, fermented around 68 degrees F.
One shampoo tube of Wyeast 3112 added to secondary.
500 ml high krausen starter of Bastogne yeast added to bottling bucket along with table sugar as priming agent.
Fermentation schedule:
Primary for two weeks.
Secondary for 4 weeks.
Bottles condition for around 6 weeks for best flavor.
I recommend getting a vigorous boil going for 90 minutes with the first hop addition coming 15 minutes later. A strong boil will give some carmelization and color develoment. Top up with distilled water if needed.
In addition, heavy weight bottles are recommended for bottling, as this beer will continue to attenuate in the bottle. I used 750mL champagne bottles for mine, capped with normal bottle caps.
-------------------------------------------------
My version was basically Adam's recipe, with some FWHing and some Vienna subbed in for pils(about 10% Vienna). I ended up with OG1.064 and FG1.007.
Too much alcohol for one thing. If you are wanting to really "clone" this beer, Paul's OG is much better(1.054)...although a lot of stuff I've seen states the OG as 1.052, those numbers are close enough that the difference is rather meaningless, IMO.
The gravity on a 9month old bottle of Orval I had was 1.004.
Too much phenol in mine as well, it was fermented in July or Aug in the upper 70s. Keep the temps lower, Bastogne will work in the low 60s at least.
Too much Brett activity. I transferred my beer at G1.019 or so...Brett ate a lot. To make up for this next time I will mash lower, ~145*F. This should help me.
Cheers
from hobbybrouwen (same guys who did the rochefort 8 clone)
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (LTR): 10.00 Wort Size (LTR): 10.00
Total Grain (kg): 2.09
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.24
Anticipated EBC: 17.6
Anticipated IBU: 33.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 82 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name EBC
-----------------------------------------------
42.6 0.89 kg. Pilsener 4
42.6 0.89 kg. Pale Ale Malt (2 Row) 4
6.4 0.13 kg. CaraVienne Malt 43
8.5 0.18 kg. Crystal 55L 108
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
----------------------------------------------------------------
9.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 4.75 7.0 30 min.
15.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 26.3 70 min.
18.00 g. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 0.0 Dry Hop
Mash Schedule
-------------
Temp : 60 Time: 30
Temp : 70 Time: 30
Temp : 78 Time: 5
De kleur komt dan uit op zo'n 18 EBC.
Groeten,
A3
another guy on hobbybrouwen says:
Gisteren bij Orval op bezoek geweest (ook even bij het brouwerijmuzeum van Martens (Zeker eens naar toe gaan!!!)). Samen met Jacques geprobeerd duidelijkheid te krijgen in het recept. Ik heb wel een paar aantekeningen gemaakt en deze met Jacques gedeeld. Hij zal mijn reactie hier wel verder aanvullen.
Orval wordt gemaakt van 3 moutsoorten:
87% pilsmout en
13% caramelmout (waarschijnlijk Munich en Vienna)
brokken witte kandij (ja, het is echt zo)
Styrian Goldings en Hallentau.
De hop wordt als First Wort Hopping, tijdens het koken (extract) en als drooghopping toegevoegd, waarvan 32 kg Styrian op 10.000 liter 3 weken wordt gedrooghopt.
Single-fusion maischen op (ik meen 68 graden) voor 60 of 90 minuten (Jacques?).
Gistingstemperatuur: 15 graden. Ook de lagering en hergisting op fles is onder die temperatuur.
IK HEB MIJN EERSTE POGING GEBROUWEN!
Het was wel even wennen om zo lang 68 graden aan te houden. Met de kou moest ik redelijk vaak bijstoken om toch bij die 68 te bijven.
Wel wat moeilijkheden met de ingredinten. De spullen die ik kreeg waren Vienna en Munich. Da's nog geen Caravienna en Caramunich. Nu had ik nog genoeg Caramunich, dus ben met Promash aan de gang gegaan om het recept iets aan te passen aan wat ik nog wel had liggen. Daardoor heb ik meer caramunich gebruikt (520 gram, toen was het op) en heb ik aangevuld met 100 gram caramout (50 EBC). Volgens Promash ontstond zo een SG van zo'n 1054 en een EBC van 20. Nog net te weinig, maar ik doe het er maar mee. Die 2 punten met de onnauwkeurighied van promash (wat betreft kleur) vind ik geen enkel probleem.
Het brouwen ging verder prima. Het gist is toegevoegd en op dit moment is er voortdurend een overdruk, zonder dat het waterslot blubt. Ik moet dus nog wachten tot alles aan de praat gaat.
Het recept, zoals ik hem heb gevolgd:
20 liter, rendement 60%
4.07 kg Pilsmout 3 EBC (87%)
0.52 kg. Caramunich 120 EBC (
0.10 kg. Ambermout 50 EBC (
0.50 kg. witte kandij
7 gr. Hallentau Herzbrucker 3% (FWH)
14 gr. Styrian Goldings 4.7%, pellets (FWH)
12 gr. Hallentau Herzbrucker 3% (45 minuten)
24 gr. Styrian Goldings 4.7% (45 minuten)
Kooktijd 90 minuten
Maischen op 68 graden voor 120 minuten met 16.4 liter maischwater.
Gespoeld met 14.6 liter water op 80 graden
SG = 1058
Ik ben dus iets te hoog uitgekomen. Dat komt omdat ik net teveel heb ingedampt tijdens het koken. Daardoor heb ik 19 liter over ipv 20 liter.
Ben benieuwd wat het nu verder gaat doen.
Edwin