Optimal Gravity Reading Before Transferring To Secondary Fermentation

[chrisluki]

Hey guys

Got my Rogers clone in primary fermentation, been 3 days at around 18-20 degrees (been a bit warm) with S-04 yeast. I was going to transfer to secondary tonight but think I should leave it another day.

Took a Brix reading of 8.1 which converts to a gravity of 1.025 (OG 1.041)...maybe still too high to tfr?

Thoughts?

Cheers

Chris

 

[droid]

hey Chris, imho its' early days, many people only rack if the beer may sit on the yeast for a while once the main meal has been served (more often in lagers) from what I believe the yeast will eventually turn on itself and go after things in the trub and as a result produce off flavours

even though i have been a racker because of John Palmer, many think it is not worthwhile at all, it is more aimed at lagers and long term sitting of beer on the original yeast trub

but i could be wrong

 

[Yob]

Why are you transferring to secondary?

 

[Camo6]

Agree with Yob. A Rogers clone should be relatively low ABV so I'd be inclined to let it finish in the primary on the yeast cake. Dry hop, cold condition if possible, rack to keg or bottle.
Nothing against secondaries for big beers, used to do it with positive results, just find it's not worth the effort or risks.

 

[superstock]

Nothing against secondaries for big beers, used to do it with positive results, just find it's not worth the effort or risks.

Would not the risks be the same as racking to a bottling bucket to bulk prime?

 

[chrisluki]

Thanks for the advice guys...I have been reading Palmers book and was just following his advice around secondary.

I am still experimenting, only my 6th brew. Was going to go to secondary and dry hop, like the real Rogers. I guess I can do that in the Primary, yeah?

 

[Blind Dog]

Would not the risks be the same as racking to a bottling bucket to bulk prime?

Yes, but that has a point (albeit somewhat moot as bulk priming can be done in primary); racking to secondary rarely does unless the beer would otherwise sit on the yeast cake post fermentation for an extended period

 

[menoetes]

Why are you transferring to secondary?

Here we go again...

Chrisluki, I try transfer to secondary once the yeast has hit about 1.020, that way there will still be enough activity to eat up any oxygen I might introduce to the wort when syphoning from primary to secondary. Having said that, I have let the yeast come to a complete stop before (carefully & gently) racking to secondary and not noticed any ill affects.

The action of transfering can also kick your yeast back into action a little as it acts like giving the whole thing a gentle stir and gets some of those beasties back up into suspension where they can work...

 

[Blind Dog]

Thanks for the advice guys...I have been reading Palmers book and was just following his advice around secondary.
I am still experimenting, only my 6th brew. Was going to go to secondary and dry hop, like the real Rogers. I guess I can do that in the Primary, yeah?

Pretty sure Palmer just says its up to you if you rack to secondary if you're not aging the beer and IIRC states that he routinely leaves beers in primary for 3-4weeks, so you'll be fine.

Dry hopping in primary is fine. Personally I just drop the pellets in as I find that gives me best bang for my buck as opposed to hop socks and tea balls that gave muted results in comparison.

 

[JDW81]

Here we go again...

I think it is still a fair question.

Transferring to a secondary has a place, but a lot of people do it because someone told them they need to and don't really understand the reasons, or the risks.

Racking to a secondary isn't necessarily a bad thing to do, however it is often done when it isn't really needed. If you choose to do it and understand the reasons and more importantly the risks then off you go.

It is probably worth noting that Palmer has changed his tune on racking to a secondary. The edition of how to brew that is available on the internet is an early version and there have been some significant changes in the more recent editions. I still think the web version is a valuable resource, just shouldn't be taken as gospel.

JD

 

[SimoB]

what about if harvesting yeast? better to rack to secondary yeah if dry hopping?

 

[Camo6]

Would not the risks be the same as racking to a bottling bucket to bulk prime?

I suppose but I've never bulk primed. Both work if done properly for the right reasons. Don't get me wrong, I used to rack to secondary and was happy with the results, clearer beer quicker, but just found it too time consuming while juggling fermenting and cold conditioning space. If you keep things clean and sanitary and minimise oxidation you'll have no issues. I just find nowadays I can do everything in the primary, then straight to keg. I find a nice yeast cake also helps 'bed' dry hops and prevent them entering the tap (although I just unblocked a Perlick due to the first taste of an All Day IPA clone).

 

[chrisluki]

I think it is still a fair question.

Transferring to a secondary has a place, but a lot of people do it because someone told them they need to and don't really understand the reasons, or the risks.

Racking to a secondary isn't necessarily a bad thing to do, however it is often done when it isn't really needed. If you choose to do it and understand the reasons and more importantly the risks then off you go.

It is probably worth noting that Palmer has changed his tune on racking to a secondary. The edition of how to brew that is available on the internet is an early version and there have been some significant changes in the more recent editions. I still think the web version is a valuable resource, just shouldn't be taken as gospel.

JD

I purchased the book and it still suggests secondary.

 

[chrisluki]

Here we go again...

Chrisluki, I try transfer to secondary once the yeast has hit about 1.020, that way there will still be enough activity to eat up any oxygen I might introduce to the wort when syphoning from primary to secondary. Having said that, I have let the yeast come to a complete stop before (carefully & gently) racking to secondary and not noticed any ill affects.

The action of transfering can also kick your yeast back into action a little as it acts like giving the whole thing a gentle stir and gets some of those beasties back up into suspension where they can work...

Thanks mate...I think I will still go to secondary, dry hop in that, then transfer to my new cold conditioning fridge for the last week or so.

 

[Yob]

3 reasons I rack

Bulk prime

Fruit

Excessive Trub

Never because someone said to

 

[Yob]

Palmer also suggests that "two stage fermentation is usually only necessary for lagers and high gravity ales" p91

 

[marksy]

The main issue I had with racking was the head space that was now full oxygen. I had a few nasties grow on top of the beer and impart their nastiness into the bottle. The time and effort seemed too much for me in the end. The only time I might do it again is if I ever make a lager, but I'm still reading into that.

Just remember to be anal on cleaning.

 

[chrisluki]

3 reasons I rack

Bulk prime

Fruit

Excessive Trub

Never because someone said to

Great points!

As a newbie I am so overloaded with info and opinions that I find i change my mind a million times over about what to do, or not do!

 

[menoetes]

I think it is still a fair question.

Transferring to a secondary has a place, but a lot of people do it because someone told them they need to and don't really understand the reasons, or the risks.

I don't disagree with any of the points you or the other posters have made and I agree it is a fair question.

My comment was pointed more towards the inevitable onrush of people asking the OP why he would use secondary fermentation (or point out why he needn't use it) rather than answer his original question on when he should be doing so. It seemed to me that he was looking for advice on how to use a technique not on wether he should be using it at all.

I use often rack to secondary for a couple of reasons and remember when I first asked about the process, I got a lot more comments about why I needn't be doing it than information on the technique I wanted to try... it's a trend that pops up nearly everytime someone asks about it.

 

[Yob]

And rightly so, I asked him why he wanted to rack to find out if there was a reason behind it or if it was just coz..

Just coz, is not a reason to rack.. Well it it, but it's a **** one.

I also didn't tell him he shouldn't, just implied that he should think about why.

 

[Blind Dog]

The OP asked for thoughts, so (IMO) it would have been pretty remiss not to pass on thoughts and experiences relevant to what the OP said was his/her plan. There is still a lot of advice around (not generally here fortunately) of the 'do this for x days' variety and its generally hooey. Some of it hasn't changed from when I was a young in brewing kits in the UK at the tail end of the 80s

Personally I agree with Yob on understanding the why before doing something just because you read it somewhere

 

[chrisluki]

The OP asked for thoughts, so (IMO) it would have been pretty remiss not to pass on thoughts and experiences relevant to what the OP said was his/her plan. There is still a lot of advice around (not generally here fortunately) of the 'do this for x days' variety and its generally hooey. Some of it hasn't changed from when I was a young in brewing kits in the UK at the tail end of the 80s

Personally I agree with Yob on understanding the why before doing something just because you read it somewhere

Hey mate...do you have any good links to info on it. I would like to understand the why a bit more.

 

[Yob]

historically, in the UK I think they used to rack to secondary for the like of open fermentation brews, as in, when the bulk of activity slowed down they would rack it off to a closed vessel... If I remember correctly that is...

 

[Scottsrx]

A bit off topic but how about trying one process for the first brew, ie don't rack to secondary and leave the brew to sit on the yeast, and then brew the exact same beer again and rack it after initial, or almost complete, fermentation? Then compare the pair?

Use your own personal experience to see if it makes any difference to the taste/quality of your beer.

I rack to secondary purely because I have a spare fermenter and it gives me the chance to clean out the trub. I'm going to start washing and cultivating yeast so I feel this is another reason to continue this practice.

 

[Yob]

I rack to secondary purely because I have a spare fermenter and it gives me the chance to clean out the trub. I'm going to start washing and cultivating yeast so I feel this is another reason to continue this practice.

:icon_offtopic:

only do this from primary, never from secondary, sorry if you know this, just thought Id mention it in case you didn't.

 

[Scottsrx]

Thanks Yob, I've never taken yeast from secondary, I'm guessing thats what you meant?, and had thought about it but will remove that thought from here on.

 

[schtev]

Hey mate...do you have any good links to info on it. I would like to understand the why a bit more.

There was a Beersmith blog post about this very topic just today. I think it spells out the pros and cons pretty well.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/01/15/should-you-use-a-secondary-for-beer-brewing/

 

[drtomc]

I generally rack to a secondary vessel for space reasons: I have a bigger primary vessel (to accommodate enthusiastic krausen), and rack in to more compact jerry cans for secondary.

2c.

 

[squirt in the turns]

Another reason to rack to secondary, although slightly different context to most of the scenarios discussed so far: transfer to keg. Carbonating naturally in the keg is, of course, secondary fermentation. Or if the intention is to filter under CO2 pressure from keg to keg. Slightly different from racking to a drum or jerry as a keg is much more suitable for long term storage, impervious to light and can easily be purged with CO2.

historically, in the UK I think they used to rack to secondary for the like of open fermentation brews, as in, when the bulk of activity slowed down they would rack it off to a closed vessel... If I remember correctly that is...

I believe some still do, Black Sheep being one example. Actually Monteith's do too (or at least the original Greymouth brewery did when I took the tour 7 years ago). They take you up on a gantry that looks down on the square stainless fermenters. Could've jumped in for a quick dip, had I been so inclined.