Opinions/input On Brewery Setup.

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husky

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First up I should mention that my final goal will be to run a 3V setup someday but not fussed if it takes me a few years to get there.

Brewery design parameters:
Capable of outputting 23L batches and also the occasional 46-50L batch @ 1.050.
Completely electric to allow indoor brewing and also remove the need for $$ LPG(although my last elecy bill gave me a scare!)
Basically an electric brewery that can pump out a double baych but still be small enough to easily do singles.

Initially I'm looking to make up one vessel and use the BIAB method while I build up the parts I require over the next year or two or three. No hurry, I have done 2 small BIAB brews and theyr turnd out great!

I have had a pot fabricated from 2mm 316 stainless steel. The dimensions are 450mm diameter by 450mm high making it 70 litres. I went for 2mm to allow ease of welding sockets etc in and also to give a good base if I ever do go the gas fired route.
I also had the base domed approx 10mm in the centre to allow excellent draining if I choose to use as a mash tun one day but it should also help with whirlpooling while using BIAB.

So far thats where I'm at, I think the pot is a bit big for my immediate needs however should I ever want to do a 60L batch one day it could be done. It also cost me no extra to make it 70L from my original 50L design.

Its from here on that I would like some ideas. Ill write down my thoughts and hopefully get some feedback.

This 70L pot will one day become one of the 3 vessels for my brewery. Im thinking of simply using three 70L vessels for neatness I guess. I realise the mash tun can be smaller and the kettle could possibly be a bit bigger but well see what happens.

Im lookign to have a socket welded in the side to install a single 3600W electric element as low as I can get it. Also a socket or possibly a thermowell at at the same height for a temp gague. Not the best location I know but it will allow me to have the next item:

Im then looking to make a pot within this pot. Say 400mm diameter and 300mm in height made from 2mm perforated stainless steel either 1.6 or 2mm thick.
This will act as my grain bag and allow me to do away with the voile hopefully. If not the voile can sit inside the perforated pot.
The base of this internal pot will be offset approx 50mm up to act as a false bottom. This will prevent anything touching the electric element or temp gague, I wi8ll just have to cut slots in the lower part of this internal pot to allow it to slip over the element and temp gague.
This will allow approx 25kg of grain to be held using a grain density of approx 800kg/cubic metre(not that it will ever need to hold 25kg of grain. more likly 12kg with plenty of headspace).

Will also weld in a 3 piece ball valve to drain as it will be too big to pour as I do with my 19L pot. This will also allow me to whirlpool (assuming electric element doesnt get in the way)

Hopefully im making sense up to here.

Now for a standare 23L batch im allowing approximately 5kg of grain(takes up approx 50mm height in the internal pot). Plus the 50mm of dead space where the electric element is gives me a minimum water height of 100mm to cover all the grain with water. Call it 120mm to be safe.
120mm of water in my pot equates to around 19L of water which gives quite a high water to grain ratio. However after absorption I will likely be left with 15L or wort allowing an 8-10L sparge.

The initial wort will be run out into my 19L Big W pot and stored while I do the sparge. Alternatively I may use slightly more grain and skip the sparge all together. Im more concerned with the large size of the pot if one day it becomes my mash tun in a 3V setup.

This all seems reasonable to me, can anyone see any problems or improvements? Am I over complicating things?
 
anyone???, I will try upload a picture to explain better.
 
I don't know much about the biab or using another pot instead of voile so can't really help you.

70L pot for a kettle is good for a 50L batch allowing good space for a good boil. I've gone for 3v all 50L and will mainly be doing 20L batches (no chill) but occassionally 40L batches. I don't think having a very large vessel for a small batch is going to be a problem really, having a large head space for fermenting isn't recommended though.

I don't know how good a 3.6kW element will do with a large batch size but there are some threads on it.

Element won't prevent whirlpooling, just don't hit it with the paddle. It may cause some turbulance but should be fine. Your welding a thread onto the pot and not directly welding the 3-piece valve right?

Seems like you have it pretty much figured out.
 
It's a little hard to read, but can be understood. Seems like a lot of trouble to get away from using a piece of voille, but each to their own I guess.
BIAB runs at a really high grain to water ratio anyway, and this doesn't seem to have caused any dramas. I'm no expert on the matter, but as I understand, most people don't sparge anyway and simply mash with the full amount of water in the pot, in which case your concern about the element nto being covered will go away.
What you're discovering is what a lot of people have already learnt, if you build a rig to brew large batches it doesn't do so well at small batches. Why make it so big if you're going to do 'standard' 23L batches (which really is a ridiculous size, use 23L batches if you haven't removed the tin opener from your brewery yet), you've built (building) a big brewery, brew big batches.
 
Keep in mind that a 3600w element is 15A, and therefore should be hard wired or on a 15A circuit.
Speak to a qualified electrician.
 
Your internal pot won't work without voile in it - not if you make the perforations up the sides as well as on the bottom. With the perforations up the sides, it will function only as a "support" for the voil bag, the holes at 2mm are too big to do what the bag does, and with them in the side it won't act like a false bottom does.

For the BIAB iteration of your system... 70l is really only big enough for a double batch, no more... And for a double batch you don't need all the pot in pot rigmarole, the voil is plenty strong enough by itself.

If you just have some objection to voil, and you want a stainless single vessel solution, I suggest you check out the Brewemeister systems for inspiration... They are almost exactly what you describe, but without the design flaws. Google Brewmeister and I think many of your questions will be answered, but... As it is, what you describe is way overkill from one perspective, and wont work from the other.

TB
 
I don't know much about the biab or using another pot instead of voile so can't really help you.

70L pot for a kettle is good for a 50L batch allowing good space for a good boil. I've gone for 3v all 50L and will mainly be doing 20L batches (no chill) but occassionally 40L batches. I don't think having a very large vessel for a small batch is going to be a problem really, having a large head space for fermenting isn't recommended though.

I don't know how good a 3.6kW element will do with a large batch size but there are some threads on it.

Element won't prevent whirlpooling, just don't hit it with the paddle. It may cause some turbulance but should be fine. Your welding a thread onto the pot and not directly welding the 3-piece valve right?

Seems like you have it pretty much figured out.


Yes mate, thread will be welded to pot to allow valve removal, same with the element, I would like a boss welded on so the element can be screwed in and out.
My calcs indicate that a 3.6kW element should heat 60L of water from 10 to 100 degrees in around 105 mins with no heat loss, which means maybe a couple of hours. However If I ever did a batch that size im sure I could turn the element on early or use hot water from the tap to start with. If I ever started doing alot of large brews I could easilt add a second 2400W element.
 
It's a little hard to read, but can be understood. Seems like a lot of trouble to get away from using a piece of voille, but each to their own I guess.
BIAB runs at a really high grain to water ratio anyway, and this doesn't seem to have caused any dramas. I'm no expert on the matter, but as I understand, most people don't sparge anyway and simply mash with the full amount of water in the pot, in which case your concern about the element nto being covered will go away.
What you're discovering is what a lot of people have already learnt, if you build a rig to brew large batches it doesn't do so well at small batches. Why make it so big if you're going to do 'standard' 23L batches (which really is a ridiculous size, use 23L batches if you haven't removed the tin opener from your brewery yet), you've built (building) a big brewery, brew big batches.

The main reason for the size being that at the minute I have the means to do it cheaply. And I know one day I will be wanting double batches to fill kegs but I still have much learning to do before that happens. And I dont expect to have the resources that I have now when that time comes.
Everything that I design for my home projects end up bigger than originally planned, from decking to garages even kids swing sets and cubby houses, Its just what I seem to do!
 
Keep in mind that a 3600w element is 15A, and therefore should be hard wired or on a 15A circuit.
Speak to a qualified electrician.

thanks mate, I have a couple of 30A circuits in the shed :D
Im lucky enough to have a sparky brother, so the wiring will be done by him.
 
Your internal pot won't work without voile in it - not if you make the perforations up the sides as well as on the bottom. With the perforations up the sides, it will function only as a "support" for the voil bag, the holes at 2mm are too big to do what the bag does, and with them in the side it won't act like a false bottom does.

For the BIAB iteration of your system... 70l is really only big enough for a double batch, no more... And for a double batch you don't need all the pot in pot rigmarole, the voil is plenty strong enough by itself.

If you just have some objection to voil, and you want a stainless single vessel solution, I suggest you check out the Brewemeister systems for inspiration... They are almost exactly what you describe, but without the design flaws. Google Brewmeister and I think many of your questions will be answered, but... As it is, what you describe is way overkill from one perspective, and wont work from the other.

TB


Thanks for the reply mate, no I dont have any objection to using voile I just thought there may be a way of doing away with it since I plan to make an inner pot anyway. At the very least the inner pot will support the voile. The only reason for the inner pot is because I can and also to make draining easier since I can suspend the inner pot inside the outer pot and press down on the grain with a 400ish diameter disc.
I realise this is overkill but since I have the means to fabricate in S/S i thought I would play around with the process now that I'm getting a better understanding of it.
Regarding the perforation sizes, my thoughts were that with 2mm the grain would jam in there and not come out. I may just make one up with the smallest perforation size we have at work and if it doesnt work ill simply use it to support the voile.
cheers

edit: I have tried google and cant turn anything up under brewmeister. Do you have a link by any chance? cheers
 
My bad

Braumeister not Brewmeister

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/

Even fine perf won't work... If you can get stainless bolting cloth or something close to as fine as voile... Then yes, but otherwise no, too much stuff will come through. Perf will work on the bottom - if the sides are not perforated, as per the braumeister, otherwise you need to go in the exact opposite direction and go with the most open perforation you have so that heat and liquid permeate easily and it's simply acting as structural support for the bag. More cage than sieve.

Way way overkill IMHO... Better to spend the time/money for the inner pot on building a second pot pot, and be closer to your 3V system. If you want to do it, fair enough, but its in no way needed or a better solution than the bag would be by itself.
 
Your intentions with the pot are very timely becuase I am soon to play around with the drill and potentially ruin a perfectly good 20 litre saucepan. I dont quite understand why 1mm perforated sides wont work at holding the grain & bits back. If the issue is heat exchange, the whole lot would be immersed fully, and would mimic the grain in a bag.

Would love some more details on why this is not a good way to go apart from it being overkill.
 
An alternative might be to cut a pot down so you are left with six support struts on the side, then bolt some SS mesh into it, such as the stuff used on anti spatter screens.
 
Your intentions with the pot are very timely becuase I am soon to play around with the drill and potentially ruin a perfectly good 20 litre saucepan. I dont quite understand why 1mm perforated sides wont work at holding the grain & bits back. If the issue is heat exchange, the whole lot would be immersed fully, and would mimic the grain in a bag.

Would love some more details on why this is not a good way to go apart from it being overkill.

It won't work because systems that use perforated or slotted plates to "hold back the grain" don't actually use the perforations or slots to hold back the grain - they use a depth filtration system, which is set up in a static grain bed to hold back the grain. The plates at the bottom of a mash/laughter tun, are simply the base on which the filtration mechanism sets itself up... It requires an amount of wort flow, directionally through the grain, to set the bed and stop the chunks going through... The chunky wort gets put back on top.

This could theoretically I suppose happen on both the bottom and sides of a vessel, but you would be fighting gravity, you would need some way to return the wort to the center of the mechanism not just the top and you would have to keep a constant, unvarying pressure of flow up as you drained your wort... Quite similarly to a vertical leaf DE filter. It could be made to happen, but it would pose some technical difficulties.

BIAB already let's significantly more particles through to the kettle, but it least it keeps out anything larger than flour... 1mm perf is going to let significant amounts of anything smaller than 1mm through... And most of a grist bill is smaller than 1mm.

Whereas if you put the perforations on the bottom only.... Then it not only would work... There is an existing example in the braumeister system I linked to of a system that works in exactly that way. It's not BIAB, it's far from it.. Its a proper lautering system with re-circulation, wort filtration. If you went down that path... It would work spectacularly and it would in fact be a total waste of time to "progress" to a 3V system, because the 1.5V system you already made would do everything the 3V system does anyway. If I were in the OP's place... That's most likely what I would do.

1mm perforations bottom and sides would "work" in as much as you would make beer... But it wouldn't work as well as the bag, and it wouldn't work as well as it would with the perforations only in the bottom. So it would be quite significantly harder to make something that wouldn't work as well - you can if you want... But I wouldn't.
TB
 
Sorry if my statement was misleading. Am aware that the structure of the grain bed per a traditional mash, recirc & sparge is not coming into play with a BIAB style setup, but still your reply is very well thought out on how it might but most likely wouldnt work in the strainer pot set up. Your theoretical statement got me thinking that if a recirculated wort was to redistribute through the centre of the mash as a specific pressure with some unique setup then could it be done. Agree with you that it probably couldnt. My brain started to hurt after a while when I weighed up the total uselessness of attempting a design when a bag does the job well enough. It gets to a point when so much mucking around negates the simplicity of the ease of concept to start with and you may as well just build a 3V system.

My interest was in the fine perforated steel of 1mm, but didnt realise how many small particals there would be in a grist, so thanks for clearing that up. You have made me rethink a few things in a design concept that's been in my head lately around a constant mash agitation and mash heat correction build. You have also saved me many hours of labour in drilling out a pot just to test it for myself. I asked this elsewhere but you might know, any idea what the thread count of BIAB fabric is, and how that would translate to a steel mesh product spec?

If BIAB is still letting more particulate matter through than a conventional grain bed filter, any further compromise to grist retention in an electric BIAB setup might even present a secondary detrimental symptom of too much grist coating the element and burning the sugars during the boil.
 
...snip
I realise this is overkill but since I have the means to fabricate in S/S i thought I would play around with the process now that I'm getting a better understanding of it. ...snip...
:icon_offtopic: kinda...

if you have the ability/resources to fabricate ss pots and you're looking to put a pot inside another pot have a search for browndog's thread on double batch brewery upgrade... essentially a mash tun made of an ss pot inside another bigger ss pot and the gap lagged for insulation.. brilliant... if i had the time/money/skillz/resources i'd be doing that. Better for temp stability and faster ramping etc... only thing is it'd have to be electric, then you could use it for BIAB with voile or later on if you want to go 3v use it as a traditional mash tun.
 

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