Ok, So I'm Just Asking...

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Peteoz77

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It seems to me that lately, any "Crooks" that seem to a risk in even the least bit are severely dealt with by Aussie Cops. Sorry if any of you are cops, not trying to rile you up. Please Consider

In USA, nearly every single person has a gun, or is legally allowed to own a gun. Anyone can at any time a have a gun with them in their car, ready to pull it out an use it. I'm not saying they will, but just keep this in mind. ANY cop, at ANY time might pull someone over and when they advance on the car, might get shot. That's not the case in AUS, VERY VERY few people have guns, and if they do, they spend most of their lives inside a gun locker, under lock and key. What i am saying is that the possibility of an AUS police officer ever having to deal with a citizen that has a gun, and is willing to use it is Very Very Very low.

OK, so why is it that in at least every single week, we hear of an Aus Citizen being shot and killed by an Aussie police officer. OK, maybe it's not that often, but I think it is WAY too often than a cop kills a "lawbreaker" who only has a knife, and is almost definitely not going to Kill anyone with it.

I am loosely referring to the "robbers" that were shot, one of them killed outside a hotel in Syd a few days ago. Or the kid that had a knife and was shot to death a few weeks ago, or any of the other police inflicted death sentences that have occurred this year in Aus. What I do not understand is.. if I am a cop with a gun, I am NOT going to KILL someone unless I feel that I am (or someone else is) going to definitely DIE if I don't pull the trigger and stop the perpetrator. These guys were shot, one of them killed, and neither one of them was a real, immediate threat.

I'm just saying that the one guy with a weapon could have been shot in any number of places other than vital organs to get him to drop the weapon. Aim for a leg or two, an arm or two, even just fire a serious warning shot. Instead (as i understand it), they aimed for a heart shot, intending to kill. I am not a cop, and i would never want to be in this type of situation. However, if I were a cop, and I had all of the training, and hopefully the experience I would think that my job would be to NOT kill a citizen at ALL costs, other than loss of other life (including mine)

So here's the question.... Does anyone else think that the Aus Police may be a little too ready to KILL someone that could quite easily just have been subdued, or injured, rather than killed? I'm saying that I think it's fine for a cop to have a knife wound or two, rather than certified kills on his record.

Ivan Milat is alive and well after having admitted to killing a lot of people. We will spend MILLIONS on him before he dies a natural death. But a guy in Sydney, didn't even commit a crime (yes, he wanted to, but didn't) and he is dead because a cop was a little scared? There are a lot of other admitted, convicted murderers in prisons in Aus, that we are too wonderful of a society to put to death, but a teenage kid with a knife is dead... because a cop was scared?

Here's where it gets silly... Australians have such a left wing image that it hurts, but for some reason, not ONE politician has made a comment on these killings performed by Aussie police. Not one Clergyman. Not one Actor or Musician. For some reason, we all just sit back and let the police murder "suspects" that have not been proven to have done anything wrong...

I'm just saying...

OK, the other side of the coin is that most of these guys that have been killed are scum. the dregs of society, and I am GLAD they are gone. I just wish that there was some sort of polarity between the guys that they have the cuffs on to the guys that have not yet been cuffed. Seems if they are killed before they are cuffed it is 110% fine with 99% of Australians. But get the cuffs on and they can be Ivan Milat or any other beast of a human being, and they are golden, and get a lifetime of cable tv, workout gym, great food, and better life than they would have had if they had not been caught.

Am I wrong?
 
If you're stupid enough to pull a knife on a cop you deserve to get shot.

Oh yeah, at least in California, if you're not going to a gun-related activity, you can't have a gun in your car-

You may only carry the case containing your gun when on a journey where the gun is relevant. I.e., you may bring it to your hotel, you may take it to a dealer or shooting range, you may take it home. The rest of the time the gun should NOT be in your car.
 
If you're stupid enough to pull a knife on a cop you deserve to get shot.

Not saying I disagree, but if you have a knife in your hand.... does it mean you should die? Or maybe just get wounded and sent to jail?
 
The police are trained to fire at the largest body mass, which is the torso. The people are rarely standing still, aiming at the arms or legs would most likely result in them missing. I won't be in such a situation because I don't carry knives on me- though if I was, and I saw the police coming, I would most likely drop it, especially when they tell me to.
 
I to wonder why they shoot to kill and not to disable. I think the biggest problem is that kids leave school and go straight to the acadamy and then become cops. They have not experince life yet and they graduate and are now law enforces. I was watching ABC and on a talk back show someone said it should be at least 25 before you can be recruited so you have had some life experience and also worked in a different environment. and being more mature.
 
It seems to me that lately, any "Crooks" that seem to a risk in even the least bit are severely dealt with by Aussie Cops. Sorry if any of you are cops, not trying to rile you up. Please Consider

In USA, nearly every single person has a gun, or is legally allowed to own a gun. Anyone can at any time a have a gun with them in their car, ready to pull it out an use it. I'm not saying they will, but just keep this in mind. ANY cop, at ANY time might pull someone over and when they advance on the car, might get shot. That's not the case in AUS, VERY VERY few people have guns, and if they do, they spend most of their lives inside a gun locker, under lock and key. What i am saying is that the possibility of an AUS police officer ever having to deal with a citizen that has a gun, and is willing to use it is Very Very Very low.
well seeings we are still having armed holdup's, drive by shooting, unregistered firearms turning up in drug busts. so much for that $500 Mil that was spent on the buyback, we still have the crime after we were told that it would make it a lot safer.

OK, so why is it that in at least every single week, we hear of an Aus Citizen being shot and killed by an Aussie police officer. OK, maybe it's not that often, but I think it is WAY too often than a cop kills a "lawbreaker" who only has a knife, and is almost definitely not going to Kill anyone with it.

how do you know he was not going to kill anyone ?? they point a knife at a copper, then they do deserve suicide by cop. you can be with in 15 feet or more and in the danger zone of someone with a knife
IMO the Police need to do what it takes so they get to go home at the end of there sift. they have a tough and shitty job and they deserve to go home to there families.

I am loosely referring to the "robbers" that were shot, one of them killed outside a hotel in Syd a few days ago. Or the kid that had a knife and was shot to death a few weeks ago, or any of the other police inflicted death sentences that have occurred this year in Aus. What I do not understand is.. if I am a cop with a gun, I am NOT going to KILL someone unless I feel that I am (or someone else is) going to definitely DIE if I don't pull the trigger and stop the perpetrator. These guys were shot, one of them killed, and neither one of them was a real, immediate threat.

You and I were not there so we don't know what the situation was.
they would of been telling them mutual times to put the knife down while drawing there firearms they would of only had moments to assess the situation and feel the need to use lethal force

I'm just saying that the one guy with a weapon could have been shot in any number of places other than vital organs to get him to drop the weapon. Aim for a leg or two, an arm or two, even just fire a serious warning shot. Instead (as i understand it), they aimed for a heart shot, intending to kill. I am not a cop, and i would never want to be in this type of situation. However, if I were a cop, and I had all of the training, and hopefully the experience I would think that my job would be to NOT kill a citizen at ALL costs, other than loss of other life (including mine)

firstly of corse they would not want shoot someone and most of the times they only time a copper would take there gun out of there holster would be at the end of the shift or training, however if it comes to the point of the crim or me I know what I would do given the same choice.

under a hi stress situation I doubt it will all that adrenaline running though you. you go to your basic motor skills. also Never take a warning shot as it would just endanger bystanders
Police undertake only 1 re-qualifying shoot a year. and not a massive amount of training to what you would expect. They are taught to isolate the threat you can still shoot someone 3 times and they could still continue to attack especially with all the meth heads about the place.
also they are trained to shoot centre mass as it has the best chance to stop the threat also the less chance to miss there target.

So here's the question.... Does anyone else think that the Aus Police may be a little too ready to KILL someone that could quite easily just have been subdued, or injured, rather than killed? I'm saying that I think it's fine for a cop to have a knife wound or two, rather than certified kills on his record.
NO the cops need everything they have to get home to there families be it OC Spray / Taser / Firearm


Ivan Milat is alive and well after having admitted to killing a lot of people. We will spend MILLIONS on him before he dies a natural death.
and he should of got a long neck and hung. or a green dream

But a guy in Sydney, didn't even commit a crime (yes, he wanted to, but didn't) and he is dead because a cop was a little scared? There are a lot of other admitted, convicted murderers in prisons in Aus, that we are too wonderful of a society to put to death, but a teenage kid with a knife is dead... because a cop was scared?
once again were you there with a kid with a knife pointing at you ??? wanting to kill you??

Here's where it gets silly... Australians have such a left wing image that it hurts, but for some reason, not ONE politician has made a comment on these killings performed by Aussie police. Not one Clergyman. Not one Actor or Musician. For some reason, we all just sit back and let the police murder "suspects" that have not been proven to have done anything wrong...

I'm just saying...
mostly because they are under investigation and they don't want to say much to cause problems with it

and Murder is a big call to be saying once again put your self in the situation. what would you do.


OK, the other side of the coin is that most of these guys that have been killed are scum. the dregs of society, and I am GLAD they are gone. I just wish that there was some sort of polarity between the guys that they have the cuffs on to the guys that have not yet been cuffed. Seems if they are killed before they are cuffed it is 110% fine with 99% of Australians. But get the cuffs on and they can be Ivan Milat or any other beast of a human being, and they are golden, and get a lifetime of cable tv, workout gym, great food, and better life than they would have had if they had not been caught.

Am I wrong?
a reason to have the Death penalty brought back for those like Ivan, Bevan Spencer von Einem, or any other oxygen thief you can think of don't you think
 
What I do not understand is.. if I am a cop with a gun, I am NOT going to KILL someone unless I feel that I am (or someone else is) going to definitely DIE if I don't pull the trigger and stop the perpetrator.

"Oh hang on how many times does it take to stab someone before i think they're going to die?" Talking square out of your arse here

Shooting to disable IS what they do. They are taught to aim for the largest mass and continue to fire until the threat desists. Reasonable IMO.

BTW the OP reads as if it's done an old cutty and pasty from a chain email. Could be wrong... but it reads like BS to me.


I to wonder why they shoot to kill and not to disable. I think the biggest problem is that kids leave school and go straight to the acadamy and then become cops. They have not experince life yet and they graduate and are now law enforces. I was watching ABC and on a talk back show someone said it should be at least 25 before you can be recruited so you have had some life experience and also worked in a different environment. and being more mature.
In QLD at least you need some form of tertiary education before being eligible for police intake... so at least not straight out of school.
 
Give the majority of plods tasers instead of guns. Leave the guns for the specially trained guys. Isn't that how the UK does it?

Equip cop guns with video recorders that start when gripped. Each cop would know that the footage and their deeds would be heavily scrutinized. No dirty harry antics allowed.
 
"Oh hang on how many times does it take to stab someone before i think they're going to die?" Talking square out of your arse here

Shooting to disable IS what they do. They are taught to aim for the largest mass and continue to fire until the threat desists. Reasonable IMO.

BTW the OP reads as if it's done an old cutty and pasty from a chain email. Could be wrong... but it reads like BS to me.



In QLD at least you need some form of tertiary education before being eligible for police intake... so at least not straight out of school.

No cut and paste here, I typed it all up myself.

And I'm not arguing for or against the shootings, just discussing them and asking others what they think.

I like the comparison to the UK bobbies. They don't have or use guns on the job (do they?) and they seem to be able to keep the peace pretty well.
 
i cant be bothered replying to such drivel... seriously, JOKE!
 
seriously, let them do do their job and get home at the end of the shift. If you pull a gun or knife on a copper then thats not their fault is it. I have a number of freinds in the force and the stories they will tell you, that job ain't for me.
 
And I'm not arguing for or against the shootings, just discussing them and asking others what they think.


well that is not how I read your post

to me it read you would rather see a coper injuered in the line of duty than defend them selves from Criminals trying to attack them or someone else

I like the comparison to the UK bobbies. They don't have or use guns on the job (do they?) and they seem to be able to keep the peace pretty well.


are you sure about that. last time I heard there was a knife issue and they wanted to ban knives or need a licence to own chef knives
 
a reason to have the Death penalty brought back for those like Ivan, Bevan Spencer von Einem, or any other oxygen thief you can think of don't you think

You don't see any irony in the idea of state sponsored execution of murderers?

@Pete - I'm sure there's a lot of tits in the forces just as there are tits in any other profession. I'm sure there are also a few who overestimate the power and authority a uniform and gun gives them. There've definitely been some incidents of shooting deaths (I'm thinking more along the lines of people suffering mental illness than bank robbers) which seem from my comfortable, safe perspective, a little dodgy.

I agree though with a few above posters that it's hard to imagine your first reaction when some guy trys to take your head off with a carving kife. Police training is not SOG training and a split second to decide 'kneecap, throat or chest' could cost the life of yourself, colleague or citizen. Maybe it's the optimist in me but I doubt most police get off on the idea of shooting someone. I reckon it would stay with at least 90% of those it happens to - the others would be the same kind of sadist you find working in a hospital, infecting people with STD's or killing the elderly for profit.

While the death of the 15 year old kid in Northcote was pretty worrisome a couple of years ago, I wouldn't dismiss AU police as necessarily trigger happy.

Shit job, probably attracts a few arseholes but I've met some pretty decent ones too. Kind of like taxi drivers in that regard (or florists, waiters, librarians, teachers and bottle shop attendants).

At the risk of anyone accusing me of sitting on the fence - I like not to be blinded by dogma or rhetoric and think for myself. Sometimes that means examining more than one perspective before jumping up and down like an enraged rat. Pretty certain where I sit on the death penalty issue too.
 
You don't see any irony in the idea of state sponsored execution of murderers?

better than us paying for them to live the rest of out !!!

however i know reality it costs more to kill someone ( in the US any way ) than it would to just keep them locked up

here is a bit more info

The California death penalty system costs taxpayers $114 million per year beyond the costs of keeping convicts locked up for life. Taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each of the states executions. (L.A. Times, March 6, 2005)
In Kansas, the costs of capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-capital cases, including the costs of incarceration. (Kansas Performance Audit Report, December 2003).
In Maryland, an average death penalty case resulting in a death sentence costs approximately $3 million. The eventual costs to Maryland taxpayers for cases pursued 1978-1999 will be $186 million. Five executions have resulted. (Urban Institute 2008).
The most comprehensive study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of sentencing murderers to life imprisonment. The majority of those costs occur at the trial level. (Duke University, May 1993).
Enforcing the death penalty costs Florida $51 million a year above what it would cost to punish all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole. Based on the 44 executions Florida had carried out since 1976, that amounts to a cost of $24 million for each execution. (Palm Beach Post, January 4, 2000).
In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992)
and those figurers are old I would expect it to cost a lot more now
 
My take on it is this:

Completely apart from the fact that the system sometimes makes mistakes (and a wrongful death of any type is bad, state sanctioned possibly worse), the law sets itself up in direct opposition to unlawful activity.

Therefore things considered unlawful such as killing, rape, torture etc, should not be tactics used by those opposing unlawful activity*. It's easy to dismiss X as being not worthy of life or even basic human rights but if, as a society we condone the execution of people like Milat or Bryant or condone the torture of suspected terrorists, it puts us one step closer to them.

There are many societies who've had governments who've got away with massive criminal activity - China, Cambodia, Soviet Russia, Iraq etc. Even if we accepted all reports of government and police corruption, cover-ups, smear campaigns etc, we'd still as a nation come out on top of any of those. The reason why is because we have checks in place and some degree of transparency which enables people to say - 'hey that's not right. You're not above the law, you are the law'. That means an onus is on them to behave as impeccably as possible and when that falls down, for some kind of action to occur to reconcile and rectify.

That's in an ideal world and we are far from that but we hold back from becoming a despotic regime by (supposedly) not acting like the criminals we lock up.

*I realise incarceration may be considered an unlawful activity - haven't figured out the foolproof system myself and don't expect to but there's so many wrongs about execution and very few rights that I'd rather start there and work forward instead of backwards.

I also think (while acknowledging the very valid point you make about incarceration vs death penalty) that cost should not be the deciding factor in how a society treats individual citizens. That's a general principle across the board and includes the elderly, disabled, disadvantaged and criminals alike.
 
mate, if a knife wielding loon had your child/sister/mum/brother etc at knife point would you want the gun holder to shoot to wound or kill ?

it was purely a case of mistaken identity but i looked down the barrel of a police weapon once, and in my humble opinion if you've got any weapon at all and you're advancing on someone thats given you full warning then take it on the chin (or chest as the case may be)


Dave
 
mate, if a knife wielding loon had your child/sister/mum/brother etc at knife point would you want the gun holder to shoot to wound or kill ?

No but if that knife wielding loon was in fact your disturbed 15 year old son (possibly suffering mental illness) and no civilian was in cooee, would you want the gun holder to shoot or kill?

It's not clear cut and dried from either perspective.

Dude with knife, cop shoots.

Dude delusioned, gets shot.

Just for some perspective: An ex girlfriend of mine (long ago and now sadly dead) was once young and stupid like we all have been. Hooked up with a guy (not me), smoked a lot of dope. Said guy supplied the dope but was a jealous, paranoid freak.

Started lacing the dope with ketamine (used as an animal tranquiliser) in order to control her (may have had a few issues himself). Eventually as a combination from the dope and the tranquiliser, she became extremely paranoid about her situation (quite rightly too) and wanted to escape. Taking nothing but a large fur type coat and a knife to protect herself she ran to the closest, open business (night time) which was a McDonalds in very, very inner city Melbourne.

Obviously the staff freaked a bit at the near nude girl with the knife who obviously wasn't quite with it - called the cops. Cops came and while her description of their behaviour to me a few years later wasn't flattering, they didn't shoot her or even as far as I know, pull a gun. Maybe an obviously fragile semi naked chick doesn't register on the radar of self protection but they got her to hospital instead of to a morgue.

If you read my first post you'll see I'm not remotely trying to cast the police as trigger happy but to all those who say 'wield a weapon when warned and take waht's coming to you' I suggest there are many, many situations like my ex's which make the whole situation less BLACK VS WHITE. You'll also see from this post that I have seen first and second hand, police fulfil their responsibilities instead of pulling a gun. You could call that fence sitting if you choose.
 
And I was responding to you responding to OP. Round and round it goes.

All calm this end - Just pointing out there are situations of many different types and relating one of which I had some kind of personal experience.

Fence sitting reference was tongue in cheek enough too. Just giving you a bit of shit back.
 
I find it disturbing that on the one had they are saying that Tazers are only used as an alternative to using a gun, and therefore they are a much preferable option, but on the other hand they seem to be using tazers whenever they please. As much as I hate the St George Dragons and their fans one of them being murdered by tazer was ridiculous. I think I'd rather the cops just had guns because they know that pulling the trigger probably means death, where as with Tazers I reckon the tazer company says BS about them being perfectly safe.
 
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