Not Another Chill/no Chiill Post...

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wbosher

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Hi guys

I have done a lot of reading on this site re the chill/no chill debate, and obviously there are some differing opinions and some quite fiery debates (putting it mildly ;))

I like chilling as it just seems easier to me than mucking around changing hop additions, and messing around with mini boils/hop tea/dry hopping etc, just my personal opinion - enter fiery discussion as to why this is or isn't necessary...

I remember reading a post somewhere by Big Nath I think, where he explained how he used to just throw the hot cube into the kiddy pool and had no problems with this method. Someone told him about the infection risk and he no longer does this, just let's it cool naturally, no chill.

I would like to sort of combine the two methods. I'm sorry if this has already been dealt with before, but after reading about 50 pages of no chill arguments my brain is about to melt, and I never got an answer to my question amongst all that.

So, the question...how long would I need to leave the hot wort in a cube to kill all the nasties before cooling in a pool/ice bath? I'm thinking that 20 minutes should probably be enough. If this is the case, then this shouldn't affect the hops/bitterness any more than the chilling method, as most people seem to leave it in the kettle for about this long anyway after flame out before chilling. The reason I want to try it this way is I would like to be able to store the cube for a couple of days if necessary, rather than cool and pitch straight away. I personally can't see any issues with doing this, but I still lack any real experience and would like some advice from someone who does.

As I said, I apologise if this has already been addressed in a no chill thread somewhere, but those things are starting to do my head in. A lot of really good information and discussion, but most of them seem to deteriorate into a bitch fight and I really can't be bothered with that.

Cheers.
 

Charst

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That 20 minutes of hot wort to kill bugs is above the hop isomerisation point so is the same approximate time many people adjust their hop additions for when no chilling anyway.
 

bum

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So, the question...how long would I need to leave the hot wort in a cube to kill all the nasties before cooling in a pool/ice bath? I'm thinking that 20 minutes should probably be enough.
That seems reasonable but it assumes a completely full cube. This is often easier said than done. Your boil off may be more vigorous than expected. You may be unhappy to brew more than you can cube. If you have any air pockets you'll need to turn the cube so all sides have significant contact time with hot wort.

If this is the case, then this shouldn't affect the hops/bitterness any more than the chilling method, as most people seem to leave it in the kettle for about this long anyway after flame out before chilling.
This is largely in order to omit hot break - you should be doing this when cubing as well (cue shitfight de jour) so extra cube time is on top whirlpooling time not instead of.

On a homebrew level, there is little well known or understood science regarding no-chill (although I know MHB is doing some pretty comprehensive testing but he hasn't posted in some time - I hope he'll post his results here when he is done) but my understanding is that the times and temps required for appropriate pasteurisation are pretty much ideal for continued alpha acid isomerisation. There's not really any getting around it - you either chill or you don't. Lots of blokes no-chill without adjusting hop schedules and they reckon it works for them. Give it a bash, see what you reckon.

As I said, I apologise if this has already been addressed in a no chill thread somewhere, but those things are starting to do my head in. A lot of really good information and discussion, but most of them seem to deteriorate into a bitch fight and I really can't be bothered with that.
Welcome to the internet.

[EDIT: typo]
 

QldKev

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Sanatise the cube with starsan before putting the wort in it, then there is no need for the wort to be doing any sanatising.

I keep cubes for months without issue. Here's how I slow chill mine. Honestly I don;t notice a huge difference with no chill Vs slow chill.

QldKev
 

wbosher

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Thanks for the replies guys, I might just need to give this a shot and see how it works out.

QldKev - this sounds like exactly what I'm trying to do - slow chill.

So basically I just need to thoroughly sanitise the cube with starsan, pour the wort into the cube after the trub settles (20 minutes or so?), and then dump into a pool of water. My kids might object to me using their paddling pool for this purpose, but that's a fight for another day. Having said that they might appreciate me warming up the water a little, our tap water is bloody cold even in the summer.

Am I right in assuming that I should avoid aerating the wort when pouring into the cube?

As Bum mentioned, the cube needs to be completely full. Is this much of an issue if sanitised first?
 

ben_sa

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Thanks for the replies guys, I might just need to give this a shot and see how it works out.
Am I right in assuming that I should avoid aerating the wort when pouring into the cube?
Correct, you dont want any (or as small amount as possible) air in the cube...

When it comes time to transfer to the fermenter, opposite story, aerate the shit out of it, some do it by shaking the FV, others pour from height, others use oxygen stones
 

QldKev

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Yep, when transferring from kettle to cube minimise splashing as it can cause HSA (hot side aeration), but hsa is often debated. Also squeeze the sides to the cube in until you have no air in the cube before locking up the cap.

As ben_sa said, when transferring from cube to fermenter splash the crap out of it to aerate is much as you can.

QldKev
 

ben_sa

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As Bum mentioned, the cube needs to be completely full. Is this much of an issue if sanitised first?
Its the oxygen you dont to get in contact with your wort mate... Oxygen fucks beer quicker than you say robertsyourmothersbrother...

sanitise, sanitise, and sanitise some more. It is IMHO the most important things in brewing
 

wbosher

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Gotcha :) Looks like with good sanitation this should be a problem.

On the storage side, obviously a dark place, but does the temperature matter too much? My garage is generally in the high 20s in the summer during the day, but sometimes goes into the high 30s. Will this be an issue? I've seen photos of cubes piled up in what looks like a garage, as they came from this site I'm assuming it's in Aussie somewhere. So I'm guessing that temp shouldn't be too much of a problem as your summers are a hell of a lot hotter than ours.
 

QldKev

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Gotcha :) Looks like with good sanitation this should be a problem.

On the storage side, obviously a dark place, but does the temperature matter too much? My garage is generally in the high 20s in the summer during the day, but sometimes goes into the high 30s. Will this be an issue? I've seen photos of cubes piled up in what looks like a garage, as they came from this site I'm assuming it's in Aussie somewhere. So I'm guessing that temp shouldn't be too much of a problem as your summers are a hell of a lot hotter than ours.

I'm in Queensland, my cubes are in my garage (of the main house). It's 8.15am and it's about 27c in there.

QldKev
 

wbosher

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On the storage side, obviously a dark place, but does the temperature matter too much?
I'm in Queensland, my cubes are in my garage (of the main house). It's 8.15am and it's about 27c in there.

QldKev
Guess not. :lol:
 

black_labb

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I think one of the things people get concerned with when it comes to no chill is comparing it to chilling. No chilling is just another part of your brewing system that effects your beer. just like your L:G ratio, biab/3v, your sparge method, efficiency, your cooling method (immersion, cfc/plate chiller or NC are all going to give different results), your grain crush and even your kettle shape and boil off rate.

People act like there will be no difference from brewery to brewery with the same recipe until now when people started no chilling. Get to know your brewing system and adjust your recipe's and process to your system. simple as that.
 

donburke

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not quite what you are suggesting, but another option is to chill the wort to apporx 80 degrees then cube it in sanitised cubes and let it cool down naturally

i have successfully done this, with no infection, the bitterness was perceived to be the same as that of a fully chilled brew, and the hop character (there was quite a bit of late hops) came through in the final beer, just like when i fully chill

the reasoning of doing it this way is have the wort below isomerisation temperatures (or below temps where isomerisation is significantly slowed) whilst still at temperatures where you have benefits of pasteurisation

i was looking at milk pasteurisation as a guide for times and temperatures, and erred on the higher side
 

wbosher

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Just reading about a heat wave over your way, record temperatures on the way they reckon. Better get brewing boys, you're gonna need it. :chug:
 

ben_sa

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My oath! thank god i pick up my new ferment fridge tomorrow. Buying commercial beer for 6 weeks has been a bloody joke
 

Crusty

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Hi guys

I have done a lot of reading on this site re the chill/no chill debate, and obviously there are some differing opinions and some quite fiery debates (putting it mildly ;))

I like chilling as it just seems easier to me than mucking around changing hop additions, and messing around with mini boils/hop tea/dry hopping etc, just my personal opinion - enter fiery discussion as to why this is or isn't necessary...

I remember reading a post somewhere by Big Nath I think, where he explained how he used to just throw the hot cube into the kiddy pool and had no problems with this method. Someone told him about the infection risk and he no longer does this, just let's it cool naturally, no chill.

I would like to sort of combine the two methods. I'm sorry if this has already been dealt with before, but after reading about 50 pages of no chill arguments my brain is about to melt, and I never got an answer to my question amongst all that.

So, the question...how long would I need to leave the hot wort in a cube to kill all the nasties before cooling in a pool/ice bath? I'm thinking that 20 minutes should probably be enough. If this is the case, then this shouldn't affect the hops/bitterness any more than the chilling method, as most people seem to leave it in the kettle for about this long anyway after flame out before chilling. The reason I want to try it this way is I would like to be able to store the cube for a couple of days if necessary, rather than cool and pitch straight away. I personally can't see any issues with doing this, but I still lack any real experience and would like some advice from someone who does.

As I said, I apologise if this has already been addressed in a no chill thread somewhere, but those things are starting to do my head in. A lot of really good information and discussion, but most of them seem to deteriorate into a bitch fight and I really can't be bothered with that.

Cheers.
I used to chill my beers but now I no chill & no problems at all. To be honest, the whole concept of no chilling is to cube your near boiling wort, squeeze out as much air as possible & let it naturally cool on it's own. Of course there will be variations on this which may work for some & not for others but cube it & let it be. I make 23lt batches & only get 20-21lts into my cube ( 25lt cube) but have never encountered an infection. Due to the dead space, I lay it on it's side to give the tap a good douse of hot wort & make sure the entire cube has some exposure to that hot wort. As far as mucking around with hop calculations goes, just download BrewMate which is an awesome bit of software & tick the no chill option after entering your chilled recipe version to the programme. Adjust your IBU to bring it back in line with your original recipe. Ianh has a great spreadsheet too if you want to use that, no chill option as well.
 

wbosher

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Thirsty's "Flux Capacitor Hopping".
Playing with a few recipes in Beersmith, it's surprising how little difference moving all the hop additions forward by 15 minutes makes, and how small the adjustments need to be to the early addition to bring the IBU back down. I can understand why so many people say not to worry about it and just brew as per the recipe. I guess this will apply more to some beers than others though.
 

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