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dicko

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Hi,

I know Jayse uses the above method and I am considering giving it a try but i would like to know what efficiency is obtained if compared to fly sparging or batch sparging?
I currently have an efficiency of 75% using the batch sparge method and sometimes higher if I fly sparge.
How much more grain does any one use when doing this method?
I can either use my herms or infusion for mash out temps.

Cheers
 

chiller

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Hi Dicko,

Funny you should post on this topic as last weekend after much agonising and a few attempts at calculating my efficiency I tried a true no sparge brew.

[1] Mash as you would normally

[2] Run the first runnings off to the kettle.

[3] Top up the kettle with near boiling water to your normal boil amount.


I estimated, based on a 75% 2 batch sparge that I would get about 54%. And I did.

Set your software to 54% with all your water amounts the same as you would for a normal brew session but instead of sparging run the first runnings onlty to the kettle.

The normal "sparge" water can be heated to 90 - 100 c and at the finish of the runoff from the mash added to the kettle.

As an example [and these are not real figures]

First runnings of 12 litres at 1.090

Diluted with 20 litres water to achieve 1.041 in the kettle.

Boiled down to give a finished beer of say 1.048


Hope that helps.


Steve.

Oh and I "think" the beer -- in the fermenter tastes smoother and more malty. :D
 

jayse

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Hi dicko,
With the method i do and call no sparge which is different to chillers real no sparge he's talking about there, I use 75% and hit it everytime, the first time i did it i got 75% and was a little suprised. I really mix it up very well as iam adding the water untill all the waters in there.
Infusion is the easiest way to bring up the temp as your doing another infusion anyway, My 22 odd litres of water is ussually around 85-90c.
The tun ends up with around 40 litres volume. When its full give it around ten minutes to start forming the bed then start recycling with your pump.
I'll give this method a big thumbs up as it rocks. Other than the practical side there are many other scienetific factors that make this a great easy way to brew.
I check the runnings coming out of the mash tun are at the boil start gravity which they should be, very easy to do looking into that light bendy measuring stick. If its not at boil start gravity then i would say you haven't mixed it up enough but iam betting you'll hit your boil start gravity in the tun no probs.
Anyway good luck with it which ever method you use.


Cheers Jayse
 

dicko

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Thanks guys,

I have thought of using the method you use Chiller to do a double brew but I will need to get a bigger boil kettle.
Your method Jayse is what I had in mind but I am surprised that you still maintain the same efficiency.
It should be a lot easier for me now I have got a refractometer.
Chiller, your comment is interesting re the taste of the brew in the fermenter.
I assume that the mash PH stays within the desired range and no tannins can be extracted using that method.
I am now keen to try both ways but storage is a problem at the moment. I'll just have to drink a bit faster.
Thanks a lot guys for the comments and I'll let you know how I go.
BTW I have got my 50 litre mash tun up and running.

Cheers
 

Darren

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Hi Dicko,
I have found from my no-spargeing a loss of only 5% of efficiency (similar to Jayses method).
To me it is not worth the extra time for that extra 5%.
chhers
Darren
 

dicko

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Hi Darren,

When you consider the extra time then 5% is not worth worrying about. I am very keen to give it a go to see what results I will get.
It appears that not many All Grainers use this method but I recon that the shorter the brewing time the better.
On another subject Darren, did you end up getting some of that insulation from Clark Rubber?
I have got some left if you want it so PM me if you can use it and I will organise to get it to you.

Cheers
 

jayse

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dicko said:
snipped>
I assume that the mash PH stays within the desired range and no tannins can be extracted using that method.
This is true for both methods. The PH for the sparge method iam doing is the same as the ph of the boil start(as is the gravity). So you don't have any change in PH.

Looks like your pretty well set to do it, Darren there has only 5% loss so not much, maybe just go 70% in your calcs and go from there for the first one.
I do mix it up a lot but do always get 75% with beer up to 1.060, any higher than that and the tuns not big enough.
For those batchs i fill the tun up and do a small second batch, For very high gravity beers you would want to do a small second batch anyway because there is still about 7 or so litres of extract at boil start gravity left in he grains, there i just add another 7 or so litres of water. From this i collect 7 or so litres of wort at half the starting gravity which is above 1.020 at least.



My advice is drink faster. :chug: :chug:
Jayse
 

AndrewQLD

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Hi Jayse,

your method sounds interesting and a time saver, the only problem is, I don't follow how you do it.
If it's not too much trouble when you have the time could you post your method step by step as I am converting over to a three 50lt keg system and I would'nt mind giving your metod a go if my eff does'nt drop to much. also what is "boil start gravity"??

sorry to be a pain
Andrew
 

Batz

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Anything that will knock sometime off days day interests me , I hope you can do a demo of this for me in November Jayse
 

dicko

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Hi folks,
Looks like I have created a bit of interest in this subject.
I have seen Jayse use this method and it is a lot easier and quicker.
I will leave the description to Jayse when he reads these posts but i know that if you use his method you will need a large mash tun.
Chillers method would still be ok in say a 35litre tun I recon.
I am keen to try these methods as soon as I can.

Cheers
 

chiller

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Hi guys,

Dicko the size of the tum is not too important as you can always drop the water/grain ratio to 2.2 l/kg and even at that rate you can still happily get 11 kgs of grain plus water in a 38litre tun.

You would need to juggle the final water addition but you will still hit the boil gravity easily.

Either method will save you time and with the no sparge method your brewday will take about 3 hours 15 minutes.

And that is including crushing your grain at the start of the day and heating sparge water. [With a BC and nasa burner :)]

As an ideal compromise the method Jayse uses is probably a better way to go for some people. It is not as wasteful of grain and probably takes 15 minutes longer.

As an interest -------------- in my system ...

No sparge 54% [3 hours 15 inutes]
Batch Sparge -- 2 charges of water 81% [4 hours 15 minutes]
Fly sparge -- A long slow sparge 86% [Up to 6 hours]

Jayse and I brewed on my system with his method and easily hit his efficiency of 75%. The brewday was very quick also.

Steve
 

dicko

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Hi Chiller,

I assumed that you would need a large volume mash tun to be able to use Jayses method.

EG. of approx mash and sparge,

5 kg grain + 15 litres water for the mash + 23 litres infusion to equal total water used would need a volume of about 42 litres.
If you divide the infusion into parts then wouldn't this then be similar to a batch sparge? or have I got the bull by the horns? :unsure:

I can see that with your method you are increasing the gravity of the mash by lowering the efficiency and the volume of water that you use, then when you top up the boil kettle it brings it all back into line. :blink:

Please tell me if I am wrong as I may have missed something,

Cheers
 

chiller

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Yes you have both methods correct Dicko. With the method jayse uses you need a vessel that will hold all the grain -- plus mash waater -- plus the needed water to reach your boil target.

With my method you mash in your tun adding only the grain and mash water. At the end of the mash recirculate the first runnings to remove any lumps and then drain the first runnings to the boiler.

Now assume for this post you have run off 10 litres of first runnings at say 1.090 [or whatever] you then add water at near boiling to the boiler and dilute the first runnings and achieve the amount of water to start the boil. If your calculations are correct you will hit all your gravities.

When you run off the first runnings you don't add any further water to the tun to sparge the grains. The dogs or chooks will love you for it.

Steve
 

dicko

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Well now i've got it I'll give both methods a shot during the next two weeks and see how I go.

Cheers
 

jayse

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AndrewQLD said:
Hi Jayse,

your method sounds interesting and a time saver, the only problem is, I don't follow how you do it.
If it's not too much trouble when you have the time could you post your method step by step as I am converting over to a three 50lt keg system and I would'nt mind giving your metod a go if my eff does'nt drop to much. also what is "boil start gravity"??

sorry to be a pain
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
The method is not all that different really, you conduct your mash as usuall then when the mash is finished and you have all your sparge water ready to go you add it to all to the mash in one heap as you would for a batch sparge only with this method you add it all before you drain out the first runnings.

So say a 5 kg brew you have mashed with 3 litres of water per kilo you work out how much sparge water you need(you know you'll get 9.5L out of the mash) to reach your boil start volume as you would ussually. Mines 32 litres so i'll need around 22.5 litres of sparge water to get up to that volume in the kettle.
All of this water is added to the tun at the end of the mash BEFORE i set the tap and start the lauter.
The boil start gravity i mentioned is the gravity at the start of the boil in my case the gravity at 32litres in the kettle.


Steps
1. mash as per normal
2. get sparge water ready
3. when mash is finished add all the sparge water in one hit before draining the first runnings.
4. mix up very very well
5. recycle
6. set tap and take gravity reading it should be the gravity you predicted for the boil start
7. boil it and add two shovels full of hops:) (optional step)

The temp of the water you have for the infusion you can calculate with software to give you a step infusion up to 78c in the tun, The temp is ussually around 85-90c for this 22 odd litres of water. That brings the mash up to around 78c.

What you end up with in the tun is the extact wort your going to boil ie the same gravity and the same volume plus a few litres that will remain in the grain.

It is a unreal way to brew i think not just because it saves a hell of a lot of time over doing a fly sparge or a bit of time over doing a normal batch sparge.
A real benefit i have found is the mouthfeel on the beer and how clean they come up is awesome, In the mouth the tongue is not distracted by any harsh or tingley like(for the want of a better term) feel. The body and mouthfell are just perfect and you can really taste a really clean beer and pick all the flavours perfectly.
Before doing this i had great clean beers but i have found my beers are just rocking now.
I'll try and come up with a better discription for the mouthfell iam talking about here when its not 3am in the morning and iam not winding down from a gig from hell.

Anyway good luck with it guys, i bet after everyone gives it ago for the first time you'll all be converted. Iam not sure where all this lower effiency bull dust is coming from in some articles on the subject, maybe if your getting insanely good effiency like 90% you won't get that with this method, but it is easy to get 75% no probs at all.


In the end it saves time and effort but best of all makes unreall beer because you don't go anywhere near extracting anything from the grain you don't want.

Sorry for the preach on this method, it is sunday after all.
Hopefully the way i described the process make sense.

Happy brewing.
Jayse
 

Doc

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jayse said:
The method is not all that different really, you conduct your mash as usuall then when the mash is finished and you have all your sparge water ready to go you add it to all to the mash in one heap as you would for a batch sparge only with this method you add it all before you drain out the first runnings.
I've been using a slight variation on this method for about my last 25 AG brews if not more.
However as my MLT is a little small, I quite often have to top up the MLT with another 5 litres or so when the level has dropped a little because I just can't fit enough sparge water in (especially on the Imperial beers with big grain bills).
It works for me too.

Beers,
Doc
 

AndrewQLD

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Jayse,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your method, I am thinking if I use one of my 50 lt kegs as a mash tun I will have plenty of room to add all of the sparge water as per your directions.

I am going to give this a whirl with my standard house ale in about 2 weeks so I will let all know the eff results, I have copied your post and printed out so I can set up my equipe and software for the new method.

And I think a BIG thankyou goes to Jayse and Chiller for sharing there info with all (especially me ;) ).

It seems that this hobby seems to bring out the best in people, and everyone on this site is just as helpfull, thanks.

Andrew
 

jayse

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Glad to help Andrew, your 50litre tun will be fine the ussual volume in the tun is around 40litres so you'll have plenty of room.


Doc, i didn't know you where doing the same, but i think all great brewers think alike B)

Beers :chug:
Jayse
 

Doc

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jayse said:
Doc, i didn't know you where doing the same, but i think all great brewers think alike B)
My slight variation is the addition of more mash water if required (as my MLT usually won't hold the lot), and I have to do a slow run off. If it wasn't for the slow runoff (god know why my efficiency goes out the window when I do) then I'd say I was a real no-sparger.
I guess I'm more a slow flying batch mode sparger.

Beers,
Doc
 

jayse

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Doc said:
I guess I'm more a slow flying batch mode sparger.

Beers,
Doc
Try saying that after a long brewday and a guts full off your bastard ale.
Hey here comes slow flying batch mode sparger man.B)

I drain the tun as fast as physically possible, so while everyone else is conducting their lauter mine is almost ready for the first hop addition. :D

Jayse
 

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