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No Chill Sub 20 Minute Hop Additions

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zarniwoop

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Hi All,

I'm moving across to BIAB with no chill from extract and have been reading up on the differences regarding hop additions with no chill. The general idea seems to be knock off 20 minutes from hop addition times and for sub 20 minute additions cube hop and for 0 minute make a hop tea and add once cooled. I understand it's a bit of a black art and it may be impossible to do a direct recipe conversion from chill to no chill in all cases but what do you do with recipes where you have several sub 20 minute additions? I.e. Dr Smurtos Golden Ale has additions at 10 and 5 minutes, would I just cube hop both of these qtys together? I can mess around with the IBU levels in Brewmate etc with the NC option turned on to achieve the same IBU result but I'm just concerned that I may be missing something?


Cheers

Zarniwoop
 

manticle

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Brew as is first time around and look at adjusting later.

I know Dr Smurto, who doesn't NC, recommends leaving his recipe alone. If you ever brew one of my recipes, I do NC and the recipe will be written with no adjustment or compensation.

There are a million ways but the one that makes most sense to me is Thirsty Boy's combined with argon's hop tea addition for aroma. Personally I wouldn't bother unless you make one and find it way too bitter.
 

zarniwoop

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Brew as is first time around and look at adjusting later.

I know Dr Smurto, who doesn't NC, recommends leaving his recipe alone. If you ever brew one of my recipes, I do NC and the recipe will be written with no adjustment or compensation.

There are a million ways but the one that makes most sense to me is Thirsty Boy's combined with argon's hop tea addition for aroma. Personally I wouldn't bother unless you make one and find it way too bitter.
So just to clarify I should brew as per the hop additions (i.e. 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 0 minutes) then no-chill?
 

manticle

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Yes.

Then if you think the brew is more bitter than you'd like it, examine and trial the various suggested methods of compensation. Don't try and compensate until you know that you want to.

IBUs in software are theoretical only. They are actual in the beer but you only have your perception to measure (unless you have access to various quantitative analytical instruments) so calibrate your perception first.
 

Crusty

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So just to clarify I should brew as per the hop additions (i.e. 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 0 minutes) then no-chill?
I wouldn't brew a no chill beer with the same additions as a chilled recipe.
BrewMate has the no chill check box for very good reason.
If you brewed the Smutro's golden ale doing no chill, you will be getting a more bitter beer compared to the original.
I went down this road not too long ago & left the recipe as is & it was way too bitter compared to the chilled version.
When copying any recipes using no chill, I just shave the 60min addition quantity & pretty much leave the flavour & aroma addition as is to get the desired IBU.
Just my 2C, but that works for me.
 

Nick JD

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DSGA is better if you leave ou 1/3 of the water. :D
 

manticle

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Incredibly useful advice for a noob.

Good stuff.

@Crusty - yes you will get more bitter beer as a rule. However brewmate's calculations are even more of a guess than regular software with 'regular' chilled worts. You tasted wort that was chilled and wort that was unchilled and decided you needed to make adjustments. That makes sense. For a person's first ever brew, why would they try and follow the six million different ideas other people have on how to theoretically adjust IBU and flavour/aroma and not just brew to a recipe with the understanding it won't be perfect, then adjust from there?

Is a pinch of salt too much or too little? Make it, taste it, then cook again.
 

bum

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Is a pinch of salt too much or too little? Make it, taste it, then cook again.
I think your prior advice is definitely sound but if it took me 6 weeks to cook my dinner and it was the only thing I had to eat for a few weeks then I personally may not be so blas about the initial salt pinching. In such a case I might try to find a safe-ish starting point and then adjust from there. It is pretty well accepted that the bitterness and late hop character will be different and I think it is worth investigating before starting out (although that investigation has certainly been covered pretty well in the past).

Zarniwoop, you seem to have a good idea of prior discussion of the topic. It really is just a "suck it and see" kind of thing. Some blokes say NC makes no difference. Others say the difference is dramatic. I'd personally recommend you move all late additions forward by 10/15 min - if that puts them after 0min then pop them in the cube. Manticle's advice will probably teach you the most in the long run but it all depends on how zen you might be about an entire batch being little but a learning experience.
 

Crusty

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Incredibly useful advice for a noob.

Good stuff.

@Crusty - yes you will get more bitter beer as a rule. However brewmate's calculations are even more of a guess than regular software with 'regular' chilled worts. You tasted wort that was chilled and wort that was unchilled and decided you needed to make adjustments. That makes sense. For a person's first ever brew, why would they try and follow the six million different ideas other people have on how to theoretically adjust IBU and flavour/aroma and not just brew to a recipe with the understanding it won't be perfect, then adjust from there?

Is a pinch of salt too much or too little? Make it, taste it, then cook again.
I compared my chilled bottled beer at 10 weeks of age to the no chilled version, same recipe also at 10 weeks of age & to be honest, I was pretty disappointed. The no chilled beer to me was way too bitter & lacked the malt balance. It was pretty frustrating that I made a 23lt batch of the stuff that really wasn't to my liking. I think the no chilled version was in the high 40IBU. As you point out though, there is no set rule as to which way to go but trying to no chill a chilled wort recipe will yield a vastly different beer & maybe zarniwoop will be a bit disappointed as the original recipe is a fantastic beer. By all means just brew it & see if you should make adjustments, it's entirely up to the man himself. More bitter may be to his liking. I am just pointing out that following this recipe & hop schedule for the no chill version won't be the same beer, sorry.
 

Spiesy

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if following Manticle's reasonable advice, perhaps don't do an Imperial IPA for your first brew... ;)
 

manticle

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I think your prior advice is definitely sound but if it took me 6 weeks to cook my dinner and it was the only thing I had to eat for a few weeks then I personally may not be so blas about the initial salt pinching. In such a case I might try to find a safe-ish starting point and then adjust from there. It is pretty well accepted that the bitterness and late hop character will be different and I think it is worth investigating before starting out (although that investigation has certainly been covered pretty well in the past).
Reasonable point sure - as long as there is a simple starting point and less of the super guesswork as there are so many different ideas about NC compensation. Bitterness and late hop perception are definitely affected, beer dependent*. Obviously beers with single bittering additions are excepted.

I still think starting from zero rather than an arbritrary digit trying to find out an answer that only the individual can know is the best way to learn and relying on ticking boxes in brewmate seems to me to be a very difficult way to approach things.

@crusty & bum - While I get what you're saying about the time spent waiting and the disappointment, you could suggest similarly for trying to compensate and therefore getting a beer that isn't bitter/balanced enough. Could go either way and again - I know Dr S suggests NOT compensating for NC with that recipe (or any of his others as far as I am aware).

*Yes I've tried a comparison for my own with a hoppy beer and they were different. However I found the chilled one had too much malt sweetness and would adjust the grist a little if chilling.

Anyway Zarniewoop, now you have several different recommendations so you are back to square one. Why not try a double batch and compare? Then you'll have beer to drink and beer to learn from.
 

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