No Chill Cubes

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mcgarryb

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How often do you no chill brewers replace your cube? Mine is looking a little bit brown in spots and was wondering if it needs replacing. I haven't had a lot of success in getting rid of discoloration by cleaning. By the same token I haven't noticed any real problems with my beer yet.
 

ianh

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Try some perchlorate, Napisan etc should get rid of the brown stains
 

MHB

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I'm sure you mean Percarbonate; perchlorate is a bit more lively, good for rocket fuel and other things that go bang.
Pretty sure buying it will get you on a list as in "Watch List", best avoided.
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BrewLizard

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Would thoroughly recommend doing the no-chill in the keg, fermenting in the keg and serving from the keg. You won't look back and wish you spent more time cleaning.
 

BrewLizard

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I use floating dip tubes, but others have had success trimming or bending it up ~15-30 mm.
 

G00DSY

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Would thoroughly recommend doing the no-chill in the keg, fermenting in the keg and serving from the keg. You won't look back and wish you spent more time cleaning.
Keen to know a bit more how this all works - what other bits do you need? Have a spare corny, apologies if this is covered elsewhere please point me to a link. Many thanks, cheers
 

MHB

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Might work, but only if you are drinking the beer very quickly.
Leave beer on the yeast for too long and you will get off flavours. That’s a will! Not a maybe.
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I definitely agree that autolysis is a real thing, affected by a number of variables over time – temperature is probably number 1, with yeast strain and hydrostatic pressure there somewhere.

It's definitely a theoretical risk in this process.

However, the "off flavours from sitting on the yeast cake" issue is reported far more as (frankly useless) anecdotes than double-blind sampling/triangle tests. I haven't seen any of the latter detecting a significant (and negative) flavour impact, but would love to see some empirical data on it.

That said, while I think it's a great option for pale ales, IPAs, NEIPAs, fresh English styles, lagers, etc., I certainly would rack to another vessel if I were ageing something for months or years on end at room temperature.

Also for OP, even if you don't want to ferment+serve from the same vessel, I still think kegs are excellent no-chill and fermenting vessels. Namely because of: temperature tolerance, excellent seal, ability to gas with CO2, ability to ferment under pressure/spund, easy (closed) transfer to serving vessel, and most importantly: reducing the amount of shit to clean by at least 1 large item.
 
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MHB

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Disagree when part of your process is guaranteed to cause harm, its a good idea to avoid it.
Saying you cant taste a fault doesn’t mean it isnt there or that others cant taste it, its just a anecdotal comment on your palate. I have tasted plenty of beers with yeast bite and other signs of autolysis, often in competitions.
The first sign is usually the release of Protease-A which isnt so much a flavour, it chops up head building proteins and starts to degrade the head holding ability of the beer.
The fastest way to accelerate harm from yeast is temperature, second is probably the age of your yeast.
There is plenty of research done on yeast and how it affects the beer as it ages, I'm not sure what you would regard as "empirical" evidence. There is plenty of measurable data, consult any decent textbook on brewing or tasting beer.
Personally I'm happy enough to clean a fermenter rather than do harm to a beer. Brewing is about 80% cleaning and 20% having fun.
If you want some of the identified problems caused by yeast have a search through The Complete Beer Fault Guide (attached) search for autolysis or if you have half a day to spare try yeast, the number of faults that result from poor yeast management is staggering.
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BrewLizard

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Had a look at the attachment. There's no double-blind tastings under reasonable homebrewing conditions to draw conclusions from. It's just general descriptions of epitomised off flavours. Nothing new.

Again, would definitely be interested in reading some actual tasting data with double-blind, controlled experiments under reasonable conditions that have shown a statistically significant (and negative) outcome.

My 8-12 day primaried beers subsequently consumed over 4-8 weeks in keezer will likely have less autolysis than beer primaried for 3-4 weeks, which is pretty common around here too without people getting particularly concerned.

I invite and encourage you to try double-blind tastings sometime, noting that whenever Brulosophy comes up, you claim to have a better palate than their panels of BJCP judges. ;)
 

MHB

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Clearly there is nothing new simply because the harm done is well known and the causes clearly identified. That being the case why would anyone gather a panel of highly trained expert tasters and set out to prove what they already know. Thats just silly or perhaps wilfully ignorant.

Bit like you asserting that driving though the Brisbane CBD at 200kmph during rush hour is safe, and you wont change your mind until someone gets Australia’s best racing drivers together and does it to prove you wrong. Not going to hapen.
What you drink, how much and why is your decision, handing out bad advice is everyone’s concern, you will get called on it.
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BrewLizard

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You must know that's a terrible analogy. A better one would be going 50.5 km/h in a 50 km/h zone, and MHB (if he can see the speedometer) knows the car is moving faster, while no one else can tell.

Again, I'm not denying autolysis happens, or that you can make vegemite out of yeast if you want to. I'm simply claiming the null that there has yet to be a shown* a statistically + clinically significant detriment to refrigerated beer left on a yeast cake for a couple of months.

*Whereas, you are making the positive claim that there is a detrimental effect, yet cannot provide a single suitable piece of evidence within the scope of the claim. Rather, you provide the essentially irrelevant fact that autolysis exists (which no one is disputing).
 

BrewLizard

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Keen to know a bit more how this all works - what other bits do you need? Have a spare corny, apologies if this is covered elsewhere please point me to a link. Many thanks, cheers
Sorry, completely missed this.

Simplest option is just to cut or bend the dip tube 15-30 mm, but better is a floating dip tube, as sold by the usual suspects like KL. Alternatively, make your own (I've done both). Then you replace your liquid dip tube with a gas dip tube, to which you connect your floating tube. Homebrew Challenge has done it too.

That's enough to be successful, but you'd need to vent the PRV on your keg. Better to buy a spunding valve (KL, Keg-King, Ali Express) and ferment under a bit of pressure (~15 psi) to suppress krausen, which means you can comfortably ferment 17-18 L in a 19 L keg or 8.5 L in a 9.5 L keg. See elsewhere for other spunding techniques, including starting with it low-open for estery yeasts.

Please PM me if you do it and let me know what you think. I haven't even seen an anecdote of someone having a bad beer after doing it, let alone a proper double-blind result. Keen to hear either way.
 

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