Newcastle Water

[Benniee]

In the recent beers I've made I get a reasonable amount of haze in the beer.

I've also noted that I don't really get a stack of break material in the kettle at the end of the boil.

I'm brewing using tap water in Newcastle, and I've attached a "typical analysis" pdf file from Hunter Water's website.

My typical mash is:-
Protein rest around 54-55 degrees - 2L/kg - 10 mins
Sac rest around 65-67 (depending on style) - 2.9L/kg - 60-90 mins
Mash out 72-75 degrees - 10 mins

Each step is done by adding a infusion of boiling water.

Sparge water added near boiling - often brings temps up to mid 80's (which could cause haze problems I believe). On my next brew I'll be bring this down to aim for a mid 70's grain bed temp.

pH of the mash appears to be low (around 5.0 at room temp), possible due to the soft nature of the water (if I trust the analysis sheet). Also the levels of calcium are low, which I've read can hinder enzyme activity in the mash.

Boil is 60-90 mins depending on style. I try to keep a light rolling boil going - not too vigorous. Boil off is around 11% per hour. Chilled using an immersion chiller - usually around 20 mins to bring it down to mid 20's.

So - I'm open to some experiments be it playing with the mash pH or adding whirlfloc. However I'd love to hear from other AG brewers using Newcastle water.

Benniee
View attachment Typical_Comp_05_06.pdf

 

[SJW]

Hi mate. I am a Newcastle brewer and find our water great for all types of beers both pale and dark.
A couple of points though.
1/ I always use Whirlfloc
2/ With pale beers I use that PH5.2 stuff
3/ No need to do a protein rest. I cant say it effect haze as I dont have any, but head retention and quality foam....yes. With the malts we use there is little need for protein resting. By all means do one but IMO, its to the detrement of the beer. Although a 10min 55 deg C rest should be fine.
4/ I use 1 teaspoon of Gelatine mixed with boiling water and added to the keg when filling. This clears everthing up.
5/ I found since I STOPPED doing The NO CHILL METHOD, and started cooling my wort and crash chilling after fermentation this helped no end with my chill haze problems.
Straight from John Palmers Book:

"When cooled prior to serving, some batches will exhibit chill haze. It is caused by proteins left over from those taken out by the cold break. The proteins responsible for chill haze need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve.

Chill haze is usually regarded as a cosmetic problem. You cannot taste it. However, chill haze indicates that there is an appreciable level of cold-break-type protein in the beer, which has been linked to long-term stability problems. Hazy beer tends to become stale sooner than non-hazy beer."

Other than that our water is great for brewing.

Steve

 

[Benniee]

Thanks for the reply Steve.

I'm fairly certain it's not a chill haze as I can see the haze in bottles at room temp.

I'm glad the Newcastle water is pretty soft - and I guess I'm just in the "dialing in" phase of analysing my process.

I'll be using gelatin on my currently fermenting Munich Dunkel when transferring to a secondary - hopefully that will help.

I've also been using US-05, which is a bad flocculator. And I have also read that a lack of calcium inhibits flocculation as well.

The haze doesn't really phase me - the beer still tastes fine.

I'm also thinking that an amount of break material is getting transferred into the fermenter as well - but again that's more of an issue with my process rather than the water.

Benniee

 

[katzke]

I looked at the report and the different areas have very different water. The PH of the water is not what you are concerned about. It is the PH of the Mash and the brewing salts that are important.

 

[SJW]

I'll be using gelatin on my currently fermenting Munich Dunkel when transferring to a secondary - hopefully that will help.

I've also been using US-05, which is a bad flocculator.

Just a note, Gelatine works much better when added to very cold beer. Thats why I crash chill then add to the keg. Also the C02 absorbs into the beer quicker when its cold.
And I find US-05 to be a great flocculator.
Anyway sounds like u have it under control.

I looked at the report and the different areas have very different water. The PH of the water is not what you are concerned about. It is the PH of the Mash and the brewing salts that are important.

+1

Steve

 

[Benniee]

Just a note, Gelatine works much better when added to very cold beer. Thats why I crash chill then add to the keg. Also the C02 absorbs into the beer quicker when its cold.
And I find US-05 to be a great flocculator.

Yeah - I'll crash chill the primary after a bit of a diacytel rest and then transfer into a secondary with some gelatin, give it a little bit of time to settle out (3-4 days at CC temps) then into the keg for further conditioning. I'm going to do the gelatin into a secondary to try and keep the kegs as clean as possible.

I found that the US-05 changed for me a little while back - and if I'm reusing any slurry then I do notice that it takes a long time to floc out - well it takes longer than some of the other strains that floc like a rock!

I looked at the report and the different areas have very different water. The PH of the water is not what you are concerned about. It is the PH of the Mash and the brewing salts that are important.

Yep - I realise that the pH of the water and the pH of the mash are linked via the buffering ability of the water. It wasn't so much the pH of the water I was looking at - more the makeup of the Calcium/Chloride/Sulfate/etc. All the numbers indicate that the water is pretty soft. The Newcastle water supply comes primarly from the Grahamstown Dam (if Hunter Water are to be believed).

Benniee

 

[katzke]

Yep - I realise that the pH of the water and the pH of the mash are linked via the buffering ability of the water. It wasn't so much the pH of the water I was looking at - more the makeup of the Calcium/Chloride/Sulfate/etc. All the numbers indicate that the water is pretty soft. The Newcastle water supply comes primarly from the Grahamstown Dam (if Hunter Water are to be believed).

Benniee

Well that water changes quit a bit in alkalinity and could cause some problems with light colored brews. Hard to tell what you will get from the tap. Watch the mash PH at dough in and you should be OK. As far as the salts it looks good and normal additions for style may improve the taste and quality of your beers. As always double check any salt additions with one of the calculators to make sure you do not mess things up.

 

[matti]

Bennie. You are mentioning many areas of that may cause the haze.

US-05 is a medium flocculating yeast and if the slurry causing you to have a poorly flocculating yeast, you need to look at your initial fermenting regime.
It would perhaps be an idea to add yeast nutrients to you kettle to improve the health of the yeast.

As for the mash pH and Newcastle water I can not give a straight answer.
If you are keen, get your tap water analysed at the pool shop and go from there.
Just remember it changes and won't be exactly the same day after day, week after week and so on...

Lastly I would take a good look at your sparging.
If you sparge with carbonic water you will extract tannins so it is a good idea to keep the temperature around 76-78 and
adjust pH if necessary.
Ensure that you don't run off the initial sparge to quickly.
The second running in batch sparging though is the big culprit IMHO.

The mash pH has usually gone from 5.2ish to 6.8 ish.
If you add water that has pH of 8 and heat it up the mash pH will go up again.
To counter this you could either add some citric acid mineral to the second lot of hot water.

This may seem a lot too think of, but will improve your beer 5 fold.

 

[SJW]

I found that the US-05 changed for me a little while back - and if I'm reusing any slurry then I do notice that it takes a long time to floc out - well it takes longer than some of the other strains that floc like a rock!

OK. This is a normal thing that can happen to yeast when it is reused. I can't report on US-05 as I have never re-pitched slurry. But with liquid yeast I only keep the slurry if all conditions have been near perfect, and this will reduce the chances of your yeast becoming "dusty" low floccing.

 

[Trev]

From the analysis data you posted I believe the Calcium level is somewhat low. This can cause a miriad of problems including poor flocculation. A lot of texts say that 50ppm is the minimum with arange of 50 - 150 ppm.

Now your Chloride and Sulphate levels are low enough that additions of CaSO4 or CaCl will help without causing too much of an issue particularly depending on beer style.

My view, for what it's worth, is that it's much more important to get things like Ca/Mg right first (for conversion and yeast health reasons) and then adjust for pH rather than play excessively with the profile so as to mimic some particular style. Sure, you can always add whatever salts/acid you like for style reasons but make sure that you have enough Ca in the mash for both pH an importantly the yeast health.

Trev

 

[Weizguy]

My lhbs in Newie actually carries a range of brewing salts, along with some simple instructions.

I know that I should adjust my water, even though I live down the road from the G'town dam.

 

[schooey]

I put down a brew today, and with my new fangled Ph meter, I discovered my mash Ph was 5.41..... kinda close enough if you go by the books I have read. So then I guess it all comes down to calcium levels and such? Anyone?

 

[buttersd70]

Yes, the pH will in most cases, with water from Australian major centres, buffer to an acceptable level. Any tweaking from that is in relation to the mineral makeup of the water, and the particular style of water (if any) that you want to emulate.
Unlike the water sources in America, the Australian water sources are treated to a national mean as detirmined by the federal government. So there is bugger all real difference as far as being able to do a "general" mash. The residual alkalinity is very similar, it is only, in real terms, the individual mineral makeup that differs.

5.4? sounds good to me, at least for ales. 5.2 is a number that is so badly thrown around, mainly by americans. Why? because they like "pale" beers, with a "mean" spread of fermentables/dextrins. And someone writes that 5.2 achieves this, so anyone that considers a different mash pH is immediately considered "wrong".

For me, 5.4 for british Bitters, and 5.8 for milds is where I would rather be, thank you very much. So It depends on what you are brewing.

 

[goatherder]

I believe the 5.2 figure which is thrown around is measured at mash temp, not room temp. This corresponds to about 5.5 at room temp. 5.4-5.7 is a good range to be in when measured at room temp - at least according to John Palmer in a podcast I listened to once. I suspect that your mash temp and grist composition will have significantly more effect on the fermentability of your wort than mash pH.

Schooey, spot on mate, it's got everything to do with the calcium levels (and carbonate levels). Check out Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer or Palmer's How to Brew (chapter 15) for the gory details.

This post on hbd today has some background info on measuring pH which seemed reasonable to me:

"The pH of a cooled (20-25C) mash sample should be between 5.3 and 5.5.
Being out of this range by 0.1 pH units won't hurt much but you will
start impeding the enzymes significantly once you get closer to or
below 5.0 or above 5.7. This can show itself as a longer
saccrification time, lowered extraction efficiency and/or less
fermentable wort.

Note that the actual mash pH is estimated to be about 0.35 pH values
lower at mash temps (65C) and 0.45 lower at mash-out temps (78C). But
that is somewhat moot as there are no practical ways (for the home
brewer) to measure the mash pH at mash temp. Both strips and meters
are designed to measure pH of a cooled sample. And the ATC feature of
a pH meter doesn't compensate for the pH shift of the mash. It only
compensates for the known temperature dependent change in the probe's
response. The actual temperature dependent pH shift of the substrate
also depends on the substrate thus the meter cannot account for that."

 

[dr K]

From Post #1

Sparge water added near boiling - often brings temps up to mid 80's (which could cause haze problems I believe)

You betcha...you are essentially exploding big starch into your wort, this unconverted starch material will follow right through to the finished beer, its not (as you noted) chill haze..its permanent haze.
Also noted, why would you re-pitch a dried yeast? US-05/1056/001 is a good clean yeast and a decent flocculator, you certainly should not get flocc problems with it.
Ca BTW is good for your beer.

K

 

[Tony]

I live further up the hunter than you city boys so my water comes from a different hole but its basicly the same. soft as a baby's bum.

Here is what i do.

in a pale beer (under 12EBC) i use 1% acidulated malt and not much else........ the results are stunning with a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.3

In a darker beer i use one or a combo of 3 mineral salts i keep in the fridge...... CaC03 (chalk) which will add calcium hardness and increase the mash pH. GReat in porters, stouts ect where the darker roast malts have lowered the pH to a level where it needs to be raised.

In a beer where a good biterness is requires its Gypsum or CaS04. THis will lower the pH and is good in an amber beer.

If i am making a beer with some colour that needs a nice smooth maltiness and round feel i bring out the Calcium Cloride (CaCl) It lowers the mash pH also.

If im making a munich type lager that has a bit of colour and want to add some calcium salts without really changing the pH i go half/half CaCl/CaC03 for the required minerals but no Sulpate ions to hashen bitterness.

Its all a juggling act that can only be learnt from time, brewing, and experimentation.

I remember my pale beers in tamworth....... thay had permanant haze as you describe. The water was hard and high pH with mash pH up around 6.2 in a pale beer. Not good!

I bought a good quality pH meter and it found my problem! Acidulated malt helped a lot but i needed so much it affected the beer flavour so i stuck with darker beers.

Thats where the worlds beer styles came from......... Ireland has water that cant make pale beer so the make red ale and stout!

My gut feerling says its somethng in your brewing process causing it.

I dont use a mashout at all and get 80+% efficiency drain the mash at mash temp and sparge with 78deg water fro a sparge temp of 72 in the mash. but once again..... this may not work in your system

only way to find a problem is to experiment one change at a time to nail the problem or problems as they can be multiple and combining to make your beer cloudy

hope this helps a bit

cheers

 

[dr K]

As to domestic water.
Australian treated water is always a tad alkaline, acidic coditions and concrete pipes are not good partners. Australian treated water is generally chlorinated but at very low levels, just enough to do the job and not kill the tropical fish too quickly. I understand that in certain conditions, usually summer, the pH may be adjusted up a tiny bit rarher than increase Cl levels. Either way the phosphates in the mash tend to buffer very well and 5.0-5.7 is a pretty broad range for a buffered solution. Top this up with the more acidic components of darker malts and you pretty right, except for pilseners, once your water pH hits the very high 7's some adjustment, usually by acidulated malt is prudent if making a pilsener.

K

 

[Tony]

Very true............ Water pH in Tamworth when i couldnt brew a pale beer that didnt look like milk was 8.1 to 8.2 pH from the tap

Close to 7pH here in the hunter......... Heaven! soft, clean and it doesnt taste like pool water

cheers

 

[Smotgon]

I know this is a really old thread & found this on my many searches about this subject. I finally got my PH tester today and after calibration my tap water is coming In at 7 ish for the Graham's town catchment. I have also found water zones in our area that might be of use to someone else around here and I'll post that pic here too. I'm a total noob at brewing beer & from what I've read,PH levels is my last concern atm lol but I like to study hard when taking on hobbies for the first time so I can sort of know what I'm doing could someone please explain what the last meter is reading in parts per million? Cheers

 

[Judanero]

pH is useful for your mash and interesting during and after fermentation, not overly for your input water. Newcastle has good water for brewing, here's something I have saved for Cardiff, and have attached a water report from Hunter water