Neutral Bitterness And Perception

[bignath]

Howdy brewers,

hope this makes sense....

I have a recipe i want to try different flavour and aroma additions on top of a known grain bill and standard 60min bittering addition.

The hops i have that i want to use for bittering are POR and US Magnum.

I am after opinions as to what level of IBU's do you find with these hops where the bittering addition feels balanced against the grain bill without "noticing" the hop.

I want to use these two bittering varieties up to the point where it provides bitterness, but isn't really noticeable, so i can experiment with different flavour and aroma varieties on top of the bittering.

So, what IBU level do you reckon these hops start to become noticeable by their characters at? 10,15,20.25 IBU's etc..???

Opinions please.....

Oh, and am i correct in beleiving that the magnum will be more of a clean bittering hop than the por? I've used por a lot, but have a heap of magnum to get rid of, and want to use it up in some recipes....

cheers in advance.

 

[ekul]

POR is not going to give you neutral bittering, however i use i all the time (70% of my beers) because it gives a nice aussie twist to everything.

 

[Nick JD]

Look into GU:BU ratios and how they affect the "percieved bitterness". Beer is a bittersweet drink, and it's best when the brewer knows how to balance the two with regard to the style.

What's your "known grain bill" and at what temperature are you mashing it?

 

[SJW]

Hey Nath, I am no expert, but all I can say is everyones perception of hop bitterness is different. I understand where u are coming from and what u want to do. I would guess that a beer, to be classed a beer should have at least 10 or 12 ibu's. Any less than that then even the thinest beer will taste odd. Manum or Northern Brewer are good choices for a neturel bitterness and any 10min hop additions will come through.
I did a similar thing years ago. From memory I bought a case of very bland plain beer, a pilnser I think, and went into Marks Homebrew and got a few pellets of all the aroma and noble hops he had in stock. I think I just opened all the bottles and dropped a couple of pellets in each. There is a thousand different ways to do this but I like your idea.
To get a true indication of a particular hop the best way would be to do a brew and then pull out individual samples and boil em all up separate with the same hop all the way through. Would be a major pain in the ass, but would be a very interesting to sample loads of hops.

Steve

 

[bignath]

POR is not going to give you neutral bittering, however i use i all the time (70% of my beers) because it gives a nice aussie twist to everything.

yeah i know, i use it in my generic aussie stuff a lot, but i was curious as to at what point (however little) do brewers reckon it becomes noticeable..

I am aware that the points that magnum may be able to reach a higher level before it is noticeable, but nonetheless i am curious as to what we all think these points may be.

cheers

 

[ekul]

Just had a quick look through the recipes for my house beers and i use POR for between 15-70% of my total ibus in nearly everything. Most of my beers are apas using low alpha hops like cascade, so the bitterness needs to e brought up a bit by the bittering.

When i want clean bittering i use magnum or super alpha, although i haven't used super alpha in awhile because i can't get it cheap from the states.

yeah i know, i use it in my generic aussie stuff a lot, but i was curious as to at what point (however little) do brewers reckon it becomes noticeable..

I am aware that the points that magnum may be able to reach a higher level before it is noticeable, but nonetheless i am curious as to what we all think these points may be.

cheers

 

[sim]

nice chart ! :beerbang:

 

[manticle]

In my opinion and experience, every ingredient you add to a brew will make itself present unless masked by something else. Some ingredients are more easily masked.

A single bittering addition with any hop I've ever used in such a way, will provide flavour - mask it with funky yeasts or other later hop additions for sure but neutral is only really what's hidden.

Northern Brewer (ger) is the most neutral bittering hop I've used but I very rarely bitter with anything that doesn't have a place already in the recipe.

If trying to distinguish what hop varieties bring to a beer, stick with that hop variety all the way through.

Done 10%aa PoR hop flowers in a single addition @60 and noticed a definite (and pleasant) related flavour. What level though depends on a lot more than just aa (which differs season to season, as you know) - grain bill, yeast etc etc. Anyway my PoR was noticeably PoR at 60 min to 25-30 IBU, 10%aa flowers, basic pale malt bill with coopers yeast and a portion of wheat.

 

[bignath]

If trying to distinguish what hop varieties bring to a beer, stick with that hop variety all the way through.

cheers manticle.

have tried this before and got stung big time with two double batches (each different recipe though) that turned out really badly. At the time, i was having a lot of water trouble within our house supply - really weird soapy, metallic twang coming through, and wasn't 100% certain it was the recipe, or something i'd done wrong in the fermentation process, until we also noticed the same flavour in our cups of coffee and tea.

Due to being stung so badly by having to tip out 80lt of beer, was trying to go with a recipe i know works, and that i know how it normally tastes. Trying to get as neutral/unnoticeable as possible with the bittering, and let one of the hops listed below shine through.

Having said that, if anyone has a good recipe for single hop variety beers using Hersbrucker, Hallertau, Cascade, US Saaz, i'd love to try again

 

[QldKev]

Jumping onto what has already been discussed.

Without knowing a grain bill i could not tell you a IBU level which I think would be a balance.

OG is one factor in it. But knowing the exact grain bill is the key.

A beer made to 1.050 on 100% BB Pils malt may only need 15IBU to be in balance (off the top of my head example only I would need to check some numbers in beersmith)
A beer made to 1.050 on 90% Munich II, 8% Crystal, 2% Choc, will need heaps more bittering to balance it.

With the given grain bill check the style guidelines for the style, it will give you a range for the IBU. But you would need to find a style that is a balanced beer to start with.

There was a craze on here making SMASH (Single Malt And Single Hop) beers a while back. Maybe it would be worth search for a SMASH beer and find one that sounds good, then tweak with your chosen late additions?

Also if you want a neutral bittering hop to experiment with, get some Super Alpha. It is such a great clean bittering hop.

QldKev

 

[bignath]

Jumping onto what has already been discussed.

Without knowing a grain bill i could not tell you a IBU level which I think would be a balance.

OG is one factor in it. But knowing the exact grain bill is the key.

A beer made to 1.050 on 100% BB Pils malt may only need 15IBU to be in balance (off the top of my head example only I would need to check some numbers in beersmith)
A beer made to 1.050 on 90% Munich II, 8% Crystal, 2% Choc, will need heaps more bittering to balance it.

With the given grain bill check the style guidelines for the style, it will give you a range for the IBU. But you would need to find a style that is a balanced beer to start with.

There was a craze on here making SMASH (Single Malt And Single Hop) beers a while back. Maybe it would be worth search for a SMASH beer and find one that sounds good, then tweak with your chosen late additions?

Also if you want a neutral bittering hop to experiment with, get some Super Alpha. It is such a great clean bittering hop.

QldKev

Cheers Kev,

yeah, i jumped all over the smash craze and did heaps of them. Just trying to bitter with a high AA to a cleanish level and then throw some smaller AA over the top for flavour and aroma. All the ones i mentioned in the post above that i want to use are the low AA's. Trying not to use them for the bittering as well.

A brewing mate of mine, has recently done an aussie type ale base beer, but used Hersbrucker at 30 and 15 after bittering with POR. Came out great, very much like blue tongue lager (which i know features hersbrucker).

A typical recipe for me is 1.050 95% BB Pale Ale Malt and 5% either Carapils, or Munich 1.

 

[pcmfisher]

Hasn't F.G. got something to do with perceived bitterness too?

ie mash temps.

 

[Pennywise]

Hasn't F.G. got something to do with perceived bitterness too?

ie mash temps.

I agree, that chart is not the best for calculating balance unless we know what FG they are running with

 

[MarkBastard]

Hasn't F.G. got something to do with perceived bitterness too?

ie mash temps.

That's what I thought too.

 

[bignath]

yeah, i usually mash at 66.

Normal FG for me is 1.008