Need Idiot Proof Decoction Or Step Mash?

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mje1980

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O.k, im gunna do a decoction tomorrow morning. i will be doing a simple pils with the new weyermann bo pils malt. This stuff is fully modified ( or so i believe ). If its fully modified, will a protein rest help, or hinder the final beer??. Any advice ( specially b4 tomorrow morn :D !! ) would be greatly appreciated.
 

mje1980

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O.K guys, i did it !!. I ended up just doing a single decoction. Here is my procedure.

Mash in at 64c for 20 mins.
Pulled 30-40% of the mash.
Held at 72c for 20 min.
Boiled for 30 min.
Added back to the mash. Mash at 67c.
Left for 30 min.


Will sparge soon when its finished. Im a bit worried about the second last step. The procedure i had said to get the mash back to 72c, but 67c was all i could manage even adding boiling water. I dont think it will be a problem, as it should already be all converted, but, what do you guys reckon???. I did this decoction for flavour only, not conversion, and with the malt being fully modified i think that part should be fine.

Any opinions of the above procedure would be greatly appreciated. I dont offend easy, so dont hold back!!!. ( putting shit on the wests tigers may get me slightly psychotic though :ph34r: )

P.S this is the first time i have used weyermann bo pils, so i will be doing an infusion mash ( exact same recipe ), and throwing it on top of the primary yeast cake of this beer to compare flavours etc.
 

Trough Lolly

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Congrats on the decoction! :D

It's not rocket science, once you've done one, eh?

One thing regarding the procedure you were given - to get the mash up to 72C sounds like it was a mashout decoction procedure. A lot of the conversion occurred during the first 20 mins at 64C. I'm a bit surprised that pulling 30 to 40% of the mash and boiling it only pushed up the mash temp by 3 degrees (64 to 67)...Are you sure that you mixed in the decoction to distribute the heat effectively throughout the mashtun?

I'm happy to be corrected but I doubt the final 30 minute rest at 67C would have achieved much - by that stage you would not have had much in the way of higher temp alpha-amylase enzymes in the mash since the cooler mash temp of 64C would promote the beta-amylase enzymes to convert the starches into maltose sugars and hence a dryer wort.

If you want to achieve mash out temps with a decoction you can do one of two things - either pull another decoction or increase the size of your original decoction amount by at least another 10 percent until you achieve the desired post decoction mash temp.

Repeating the recipe with a single infusion mash schedule will be an interesting exercise in working out the differences that decoction mashing has on the Bohemian Pils malt....Let us know how you go.

Cheers,
TL
 

mje1980

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Trough lolly, i added a litre of water to the decoction coz i thought it might scorch, as i strained it very well. I will not do this next time. I also dont really know if i took out enough grain. I will take more next time also. It isnt really that hard, and i will do it again :) .
 

RobW

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I dug this out last night from Laurie Strachan's Home Brewing in Australia. It has water temps and volumes to use for various amounts of grain for step mashes & decoctions. I have done the Picton Lager recipe & the temps were spot on - not a bad lager either.

ed: sorry problem with attachment - I'll post it again later
 

RobW

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This time

step1.jpg


step2.jpg


step_decoct.jpg
 

Ziggy-san

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Hey gents - de-lurking to post my reply to a similar thread:

A 90 minute mash will give you a slightly more fermentable wort, and if used in conjunction with slightly thinner mashes (1.5-1.75qts/lb) I'd argue that it'll give you better extract if properly managed. e.g. 10 minute solubilization, 20 beta, 35 both, 20 alpha, 5 min mashout more evenly distributes the enzymes, gives the starch bodies more time to absord liquid (and thus become more accessible to enzymes) and give the enzymes more time to work on the starches.

I've noticed very good results when I combine the above time schedule with generous amounts of time dedicated ONLY to beta amylase (BA - 131F-145F) followed by a raise to alpha amylase (AA - 155F-165F) through decoction. My research (and personal experimentation) indicates that the decoction, when supported with small water addition, improves extract efficiency. Based on lit, this is due to the gelatinization of barley starches which then improve the amount of starch available to AA which chews right through them.

Taking gelatinization into account, I think the best way to increase EE on a HB level would be to crush fine and mash in medium-think&low (108F) stirring like the dickens for about 10-15minutes to solubilize enzymes etc. Bring the temp up to 135F (BA) with a medium-thin mash, hold for 15 minutes stirring once, pull a THICK decoction, decoct to raise temp to 140-145F (BA-w/access to gelatinized starches), hold for 30 minutes stirring once or twice, decoct THICK to Alpha temps (150-159F) hold for 30 minutes, stirring once or twice and mashout & sparge.

The below post on HBD does a very good job of breaking down the process, as well as providing a very complex commercial mash schedule designed to maximise ectract efficiency.


See: http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4755.html

*************
As for my usual procedure, I typically pull 75-90% of the grain after the b-amylase rest, ramp up to 150F+ and hold for 20 minutes and boil for at least 30 minutes. I pull almost NO liquid with the grain and take care to strain it a lot. Its kind of a pain stirring for the first 30 minutes while its heating up, but once it hits boiling temperatures I only stir a little bit as it roils pretty well.

The purpose of decoction is two-fold: 1) to darken the grain and encourage melanoidin formation (which will result in maltier and roastier flavors for your beer) and 2) to raise the temperature of the mash without the need for adding more liquid. Note that melanoidin formation takes quite a while at boiling temperatures so 30 minutes of boiling is the MINIMUM amount of time for a proper decoction. As per above, I've also noticed some benefits in terms of efficiency as well as color and flavor. Others using the above formula have reported similar gains in efficiency, if not flavor. I think the typical efficiency for the procedure outlined above is 92% as an average of my data and information gained from other brewers using that mash schedule. My peak was 96% and low was 88%.

Nick "TheMadMasher" Zeigler
 

Trough Lolly

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Ziggy-san said:
The below post on HBD does a very good job of breaking down the process, as well as providing a very complex commercial mash schedule designed to maximise ectract efficiency.

See: http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4755.html

*************
Nick "TheMadMasher" Zeigler
[post="67770"][/post]​

Thanks for your thoughts, Nick...
I'm a bit more slapdash than the article - my issue is managing the temperature in the mash - so I just pull some, boil it and toss it back in and it works for me! ;)

Cheers,
TL
 

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