my typical brew day

[Dan Pratt]

MB - please allow me to apologize, you have a top rig, your making top beer no doubt, I was envious that you could achieve 95% BHE and im not trying to derail this, again, but big ups for documenting the brew day, pics and details are great.

I have been researching how I can improve on my % for my own peace of mind, 70% is low and my system can do better. I read through the electric brewery website (by the way _ FKN AMAZING!!) but a thread on the forum about efficiency variations, a member asked Kal what his 95% is BHE or Mash? ........ and the answer was MAsh.

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26127 page 1, post # 9 and then on page 3 second last post.

Now Im confused, your numbers do add up to 92% - getting x Litres of x gravity wort into the FV equates to that %.....how though...how???

 

[mb-squared]

Hi Prattty1, not sure what else to tell you. I see that this is very important to you and perhaps I should care about it more myself. But I've always been more interested in the quality of the final product myself -- though I admit that I do like having what seems to be a pretty efficient setup.

I can give you some more numbers, but it probably won't satiate your curiosity. I brewed a Bohemian Pilsner last weekend. 10.1kg of grain. Pre-boil vol of 59.5 litres @1.051 for a mash efficiency of 97.3 (so says Beersmith). After a 60min boil, and some lost wort along the way, I ended up with 51L in my fermentor at 1.056. Beersmith tells me that equates to an overall efficiency of 91%, which is pretty standard for me. But if memory serves, I was probably a bit generous when measuring out the grain before milling it. So I might have had 2-300 more grams of grain than the recipe had called for. If that is the case, perhaps my BHE was closer to 87~88%.

Again, don't think that is going to help you out much. FWIW, reading through the forum you linked to, I was reminded of one more thing that I always do which may contribute a bit. That is, in addition to running a very slow sparge until my BK is full, I always make sure that I've got my flow rates adjusted so that there is ~10cm of clear water sitting on top of the grain bed. I believe that really helps to push out all the heavy, sugary goodness below. In my case, the sugary goodness is definitely in the bottom of the pot because I never stir the MT after doughing in.

Cheers,

matto

 

[TheWiggman]

Pratty1 (me again), the big differences I can see is -

Rigorous whirlpool during mash
pH adjusted sparge water

My setup is functionally identical to this and I get standard - albeit reasonable - efficiency. To isolate the differences I think mb would have to do a run with a batch sparge, standard water, and minimal grain bed disturbance. Theoretically there should be a drop to around 75% and would confirm the differences as attributing to efficiency.

Also worth checking measuring devices, not sure how things are measured.

Alternatively, I could copy mb's method but I don't have a pH meter or lactic acid.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Hi Prattty1, not sure what else to tell you. I see that this is very important to you and perhaps I should care about it more myself. But I've always been more interested in the quality of the final product myself -- though I admit that I do like having what seems to be a pretty efficient setup.

I can give you some more numbers, but it probably won't satiate your curiosity. I brewed a Bohemian Pilsner last weekend. 10.1kg of grain. Pre-boil vol of 59.5 litres @1.051 for a mash efficiency of 97.3 (so says Beersmith). After a 60min boil, and some lost wort along the way, I ended up with 51L in my fermentor at 1.056. Beersmith tells me that equates to an overall efficiency of 91%, which is pretty standard for me. But if memory serves, I was probably a bit generous when measuring out the grain before milling it. So I might have had 2-300 more grams of grain than the recipe had called for. If that is the case, perhaps my BHE was closer to 87~88%.

Again, don't think that is going to help you out much. FWIW, reading through the forum you linked to, I was reminded of one more thing that I always do which may contribute a bit. That is, in addition to running a very slow sparge until my BK is full, I always make sure that I've got my flow rates adjusted so that there is ~10cm of clear water sitting on top of the grain bed. I believe that really helps to push out all the heavy, sugary goodness below. In my case, the sugary goodness is definitely in the bottom of the pot because I never stir the MT after doughing in.

Cheers,

matto

Hi Matto,

Seemingly I'm caught up in the numbers, its what I do for a living, technical data which is why i have to know its right. I'm all for quality, for years I have focused on quality over quantity ( LHBS guy taught me that one ) but when I read 92% I had to question it, no offense intended. With a simple math based on the above pilsner 59.5lt preboil to 51lt into the FV is 86%, you lost 14% of your beer through boil of and trub, totally unavoidable but those figures make sense. I know i can get 10% more from my system and will make some small changes to see if that can happen.

Meanwhile - WIggman mentioned above that you whirlpool the mash, i haven't heard of this before,firstly is that correct and ow does that work?

 

[mb-squared]

Yes, the inlet to my mash tun is a silicone hose that wraps around the inside of the kettle. Because I run my wort pump wide open during the whole mash, a fairly speedy whirlpool develops in the mash tun. Here's a video from Kal's site, which depicts things pretty well:

http://youtu.be/frsuCg35V8Q?t=4m

 

[JDW81]

70% is low and my system can do better. I read through the electric brewery website (by the way _ FKN AMAZING!!) but a thread on the forum about efficiency variations, a member asked Kal what his 95% is BHE or Mash?

Chasing efficiency is one of my bug bears, as everyone seems to place way more importance on it than is really necessary. A brewhouse that runs at 85% efficiency does not make better beer than one which runs at 70%.

I agree if your efficiency is below 65% then you need to address it, but consistency is far more important. I'd rather run at 65% and hit all my numbers all the time than at 85% and end up short of gravity every second brew. Inconsistency will have more of an affect on the end product than "low" efficiency.

FWIW my brewery is dialled in at about 72% and I always hit my brew boil gravity and post boil gravity. I have no intention of trying to boost those numbers as I don't believe chasing efficiency is going to make my beer better. Yeast, fermentation temps, appropriate ingredients and well formulated and balanced recipes are what I think are important to nail home brew, not getting 10% more out of your rig.

Please bear in mind that this is just my view on this, based on my experience and I'm quite happy to cop a flaming from those who believe efficiency is worth chasing and will make you better beer.

Keep brewing up a storm lads.

JD

 

[mb-squared]

I agree whole-heartedly JD. consistency is much more important.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Cheers JD. I think your right in saying that. I'm getting consistency on each brew, preboil gravity, preboil volume, post boil gravity but my post boil volumes have been out a little lately due to bigger hopping schedule so I'm adjusting that this week, with more sparge.

Happy brewing.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Consistency is important and efficiency is ever evolving. As home brewers we are always adjusting our gear and process so our efficiency changes with that as well.

Knowing what changes it, helps you learn the effect of what you change on it.

I think efficiency is important, knowing it, understanding it, and always looking to make improvements, it's the nature of this hobby, building things, learning things and putting those things in to practice! Just don't let it overtake the brewing of a good tasty beer by changing everything every brew.

I think the golden rule is - You have to truly know your system before you can start to tweak it.

 

[stux]

Surely, the important thing is that MB^2 is getting virtually the same efficiency into the fermenter as into the boil. The big loss between the kettle and fermenter is kettle trub and cooling.

I noticed that mb-squared is using a rather nifty stainless steel mesh, and a siphon to the very bottom of the kettle.

Providing all the liquid in the cooler chiller can get into the fermenter, then this is the reason why such good brewhouse efficiency is possible.

Of course, brew house efficiency makes no difference to anything. Take a L from your kettle, and splash it on the ground... you just changed your brewhouse efficiency, without affecting the beer.

Mash/Lauter ie Into Kettle efficiency is what matters, and getting 95% there is impressive, and would require some serious sparging. And that's where the efficiency chasing can result in worse beer.

Aiming for 66% brewhouse efficiency, does not guarantee a better beer... but being happy with 85-90% mash/lauter efficiency might.

Try to prevent post boil losses (ie kettle trub, chiller losses) and you will get your Brewhouse Efficiency to be closer to Mash/Lauter efficiency, which is purely an economic saving. (less grain, hops, water and power required to make the same amount of beer).

 

[squirt in the turns]

Again, don't think that is going to help you out much. FWIW, reading through the forum you linked to, I was reminded of one more thing that I always do which may contribute a bit. That is, in addition to running a very slow sparge until my BK is full, I always make sure that I've got my flow rates adjusted so that there is ~10cm of clear water sitting on top of the grain bed. I believe that really helps to push out all the heavy, sugary goodness below. In my case, the sugary goodness is definitely in the bottom of the pot because I never stir the MT after doughing in.

Cheers,

matto

Hey matto, definitely agree with the slow sparge. My system's quite similar to yours and I've managed mash efficiencies above 90% before, although I must admit to being a bit of a tinkerer and changing things way too often (though not necessarily in pursuit of higher efficiency).

Anyway, I have a few questions about your sparge process:
Do you maintain that 10 cm of water over the grain bed right up until you stop sparging? I.e. your MT is still full of hot, weak wort when you reach your pre-boil vol in the kettle? Unless you have a use for that liquid (strike liquor for the next batch?) it seems like a bit of a waste. When you were dialling in your system, did you try sparging with only as much water as was required to reach your pre-boil volume and completely draining the MT? If so, did it cost you much in efficiency?

Also, do you adjust the flow rates from the HLT and to the BK to match manually? With the flow running so slowly, it takes a long time for any dependency to show, and I've previously wandered off to do something else thinking I've got them nicely in sync only to come back to the MT gently overflowing everywhere! Standing there monitoring the process throughout the sparge is excruciating and I'm thinking about maybe a Blichmann autosparge or some more electronics in my brewery to automate this step.

 

[mb-squared]

...

Anyway, I have a few questions about your sparge process:
Do you maintain that 10 cm of water over the grain bed right up until you stop sparging? I.e. your MT is still full of hot, weak wort when you reach your pre-boil vol in the kettle? Unless you have a use for that liquid (strike liquor for the next batch?) it seems like a bit of a waste. When you were dialling in your system, did you try sparging with only as much water as was required to reach your pre-boil volume and completely draining the MT? If so, did it cost you much in efficiency?

hey squirt, I'm pretty lazy about calculating my sparge water. I maintain ~10cm of water on the top until I see that my BK is within ~10L of being full and then I turn off my water pump. Doing it that way I always end up with extra water in the MT that I have to drain off. But it doesn't go to waste. I like my barley tea straight out of the MT and so do my kiddos I tell them its Milo without the powdered milk and vegetable oil

Also, do you adjust the flow rates from the HLT and to the BK to match manually? With the flow running so slowly, it takes a long time for any dependency to show, and I've previously wandered off to do something else thinking I've got them nicely in sync only to come back to the MT gently overflowing everywhere! Standing there monitoring the process throughout the sparge is excruciating and I'm thinking about maybe a Blichmann autosparge or some more electronics in my brewery to automate this step.

I use a 500ml cup and make sure that the flowrate out of both my water and wort pumps is right at 30secs to fill it. Since starting this thread, I've added a sight glass to the MT and that makes things even easier. Now I get the flow rate of my wort pump where I want it and then just make sure that the total volume in the MT isn't varying too much. But I'm with you in thinking that a fancy valve of some kind that I could program to run at the flow I wanted would be a perfect addition to the brewery. But I've got too many other toys to buy and figure out first

Cheers,

matto

 

[squirt in the turns]

I use a 500ml cup and make sure that the flowrate out of both my water and wort pumps is right at 30secs to fill it. Since starting this thread, I've added a sight glass to the MT and that makes things even easier. Now I get the flow rate of my wort pump where I want it and then just make sure that the total volume in the MT isn't varying too much. But I'm with you in thinking that a fancy valve of some kind that I could program to run at the flow I wanted would be a perfect addition to the brewery. But I've got too many other toys to buy and figure out first

Cheers,

matto

I always measure my sparge water to give me exactly my pre-boil volume when the MT is drained. This relies on water absorption rates of the grain being predictable but I've found that Beermsith is usually spot-on in that regard.

Your measuring method to match flow rates is a nice simple way to do it. My current system makes that a bit difficult as I have this slightly ridiculous double-spiral copper coil with slots cut in it, which I suspend from a hook on the MT lid so that it hangs just below the liquid level, the idea being to gently distribute wort/water over the grain bed without causing any aeration during recirculation and sparging. I think I'll get rid of that, though, and go with the hose resting on the grain bed method.

I love electronic automation and I've toyed with the idea of putting float switches in the HLT, MT and kettle to make fly sparging an unattended process. The water pump would switch on/off to maintain the desired depth of water over the grain bed, and switch off when the HLT empties to stop it running dry. The switch in the kettle would control the wort pump and switch it off when pre-boil volume is reached to stop the wort pump running dry. But I have too many wires and switches in the brewery already. I think a simpler mechanical solution like the Autosparge is a good compromise. That way I can just set the flow rate into the kettle and measure it but don't stress too much about getting exactly 1L/min. Then I'll just have to return once during the process to switch off the water pump when the HLT empties, and again at the end to switch off the wort pump. The exact time at which these occur should be known as the flow rate into the kettle is known.

 

[Gelding]

I am curious to know whether adjusting the pH of your water in the HLT has any effect.

As you say , your water is soft, and the mash has a huge buffer potential to keep it mid 5's naturally ?

 

[mb-squared]

Hi Gelding, good question. I've never tried running an extended sparge without first adding a drop or two of lactic acid to the sparge water, so I don't know the answer. I do know that once I'm ~30 minutes into the sparge that I have ~10cm of clear water sitting on top of the grain bed so that is un-buffered water there. But again, I don't really know the answer.

It's certainly one of those things that you could experiment with, but I know that keeping the PH of the sparge water down isn't going to cause any problems with an extended sparge, so I've never thought to ask/investigate the question you've asked

 

[Gelding]

I think with soft water your mash pH is hardly going to be affected by a drop or two of acid... I'm presuming we have all diligently studied the water chemistry chapter in our "how to brew" bible or summarised for those who prefer to listen.