More Friggin Infectionshad To Toss Out

[fergi]

had to toss out 3 kegs of AG beer a couple of weeks ago,.

so i had to make some more quickly as i dont have any beer left, i decided to make a double batch of screwtops JSGA clone.

this was made on my new system that i put together with the addition of a march pump.
made the double batch last friday, cubed both lots and put one into the fermenter on saturday,,.

this morning i got up to find the cube i had sitting inmy laundry looking like a soccer ball, opened the lid and its fermenting away without me adding any yeast.
smells like crap.

i tested the one i put down on saturday in the fermenter and its down to 1012 from 1042, tasted some out of the test tube and the initial taste i thought it was okay ,but after a few minutes i detected a real pepper on the tongue and slight tingling of the lips.

i reckon this one is on the way as well.

now i take my beer hygene seriously and until recently havent had any problems
i threw out my old fermenter and cubes so i dont have a clue where the infection could be coming from.

it is obviously not the cubes or fermenter as they are all new, and only one is in the fermenter at present.

so it must be somewhere from, HLT, MASH TUN, KETTLE, but all are new except HLT.

any ideas why this is happening,

also when i run the wort into the cubes i sterilise the kettle to cube hose and also have a clean cloth sterilised which i put around the hose in the lid of the cube to stopp any dust fromgetting into the cubes.


fergi

 

[donburke]

had to toss out 3 kegs of AG beer a couple of weeks ago,.

so i had to make some more quickly as i dont have any beer left, i decided to make a double batch of screwtops JSGA clone.

this was made on my new system that i put together with the addition of a march pump.
made the double batch last friday, cubed both lots and put one into the fermenter on saturday,,.

this morning i got up to find the cube i had sitting inmy laundry looking like a soccer ball, opened the lid and its fermenting away without me adding any yeast.
smells like crap.

i tested the one i put down on saturday in the fermenter and its down to 1012 from 1042, tasted some out of the test tube and the initial taste i thought it was okay ,but after a few minutes i detected a real pepper on the tongue and slight tingling of the lips.

i reckon this one is on the way as well.

now i take my beer hygene seriously and until recently havent had any problems
i threw out my old fermenter and cubes so i dont have a clue where the infection could be coming from.

it is obviously not the cubes or fermenter as they are all new, and only one is in the fermenter at present.

so it must be somewhere from, HLT, MASH TUN, KETTLE, but all are new except HLT.

any ideas why this is happening,

also when i run the wort into the cubes i sterilise the kettle to cube hose and also have a clean cloth sterilised which i put around the hose in the lid of the cube to stopp any dust fromgetting into the cubes.


fergi

if your cube swelled, chances are you didnt have a perfect seal and some wild bug got in

please tell, in detail, what your procedure is, starting at flameout

 

[Rowy]

Did you clean and sanitise the new fermenter and cubes before you used them for the first time. (Just asking not being insulting)

 

[Batz]

Your not sanitizing well enough, sorry but's that it. What are you using?


batz

 

[Thefatdoghead]

What about your tap from the kettle? Maybe you have missed a bit of old wort there?

 

[Rowy]

What about your tap from the kettle? Maybe you have missed a bit of old wort there?

Good call Gav. I wonder if the tap is a three piece?

 

[fergi]

thanks for replies fellas,
after boil is finished i put the lid on my kettle for the last 3 or 4 minutes of my boil.

i then stir with sterilised spoon to get my whirlpool going.
leave the whirlpool for 10 minutes then open the sterilised cube lid, put the sterilised hose onto the ball valve, run a cup full or two of boiling wort through the ball valve and hose into a container, toss that bit out, then put the hose into the cube ,turn ball valve on and cover the cube opening with a sterilised cloth to keep contaminants out, fill cube to brim, turn ball valve off, lift cube by the handle to make a bit more space in the top of the cube then top up with probably another 500 ml to get all air out,i then screw lid on and roll the cube on its sides etc,i then leave the cubes in the laundry to cool, then next day put into fermenter.

i did clean and sterilise the fermenter and cubes as usual before hand.
the hlt ,pump, and mash tun were all sterilised as usual.

i have done this for the 20 AG batches i have done.

Batz i use a product that we use at work in a butcher shop called bacban, its a sanitiser no rinse product, i have been using this for about 3 years.

fergi

 

[matho]

taps definitely grow some funky stuff, I neglected to pull down my three piece for a couple of brews, when I did there was some nice black slime in it.

maybe the hose you use to go from the kettle to the cube. Being no chill though you wouldn't think this would matter much as the cube would be above 80 deg for a fair while, maybe the something post boil has a nasty heat resistant bug in it

 

[kelbygreen]

could also be your pump if your using that to put it into the cubes??? its gotto be something between the pot and the cubes or as matho said a heat resistant bug.

This really sucks to hear and its costing you a bit of money. Maybe clean everything but taking it all apart and bleach treat everything from the HLT to the fermenter and everything in between the wort will come in contact with. If that fails I dunno.

 

[fergi]

guys the taps are cleaned every batch,
i only pump hlt to mash tun with my pump then gravity out of the mash tun into a bucket then into the kettle.

have been doing it this way all the time, surely from boiler to cube is the only place for a chance of infection,

really pissed off with all these infections , i am sure i do take proper care with hygene.
fergi

 

[kelbygreen]

it could be stuff in the air to. So I would keep the kettle covered when you turn it off and maybe quickly open the sanitised cube put the hose in wrap the cube hole up with glad wrap and fill it in a kind of inclosed setup. I cant see much you can do. As matho said take the ball valve apart and clean it well. I would of thought 1 + hours of around 100c would kill the bugs in the tap if any there.

 

[Brad Churchill]

The only thing I can think of is try changing what you use to sanitise.
Maybe some bad arsed bug has become tolerant to what you are using.

Sterilise with some bleach rinse with some boiling water and then sanitise with some starsan.

The stuff is pretty cheap at the end of the day and the only thing that makes sense to me is that your cleaning product has started to fail you for some reason.

Worth a shot?

Cheers Brad

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Try change your sanitizer to another brand. Maybe there is a bug that got used to your sanitizer along the way.

 

[winkle]

The only thing I can think of is try changing what you use to sanitise.
Maybe some bad arsed bug has become tolerant to what you are using.

Sterilise with some bleach rinse with some boiling water and then sanitise with some starsan.

The stuff is pretty cheap at the end of the day and the only thing that makes sense to me is that your cleaning product has started to fail you for some reason.

Worth a shot?

Cheers Brad

+1 to that, nuke everything with bleach etc. and make sure that everything possible is stripped down and carefully cleaned - have a careful look at the transfer hose, there could a heat tolerant beasty hiding inside the tube (unlikely but possible). Also try and avoid flowering trees and shrubs near where your kettle is located.

 

[fergi]

yes i think i will try a different sanitiser, may be something getting used to what i have.
thanks guys its a tricky problem.
fergi

 

[petesbrew]

Infections are ******, but I'm still using the same fermenter I started with 6-7 years ago.
I'm making good beers out of it, and I've had the odd infection out of it.
Sure I've thrown the odd cube or tap, but they're harder to clean, hey?

In the end, infections are one of those things that plague us, and keep us on our toes in regards to cleanliness, IMO.
Fergi, all the best with showing the infection who's boss!

 

[stillscottish]

Also try and avoid flowering trees and shrubs near where your kettle is located.

Pot = Black

?

 

[malt_shovel]

yes i think i will try a different sanitiser, may be something getting used to what i have.
thanks guys its a tricky problem.
fergi

This may be unpopular, but try a kit beer without using any of the AG equipment you would normally use, except the fermenter (no boil, with minimal mucking around). If you still have an infection, you can rule out a large part of the process and can isolate it somewhat to the fermentor or surrounds. Also if you don't have an infection you have something to drink while pondering the next move.

 

[winkle]

Pot = Black

?

I said 'try'

 

[petesbrew]

This may be unpopular, but try a kit beer without using any of the AG equipment you would normally use, except the fermenter (no boil, with minimal mucking around). If you still have an infection, you can rule out a large part of the process and can isolate it somewhat to the fermentor or surrounds. Also if you don't have an infection you have something to drink while pondering the next move.

+1 this idea.

 

[donburke]

thanks for replies fellas,
after boil is finished i put the lid on my kettle for the last 3 or 4 minutes of my boil.

i then stir with sterilised spoon to get my whirlpool going.
leave the whirlpool for 10 minutes then open the sterilised cube lid, put the sterilised hose onto the ball valve, run a cup full or two of boiling wort through the ball valve and hose into a container, toss that bit out, then put the hose into the cube ,turn ball valve on and cover the cube opening with a sterilised cloth to keep contaminants out, fill cube to brim, turn ball valve off, lift cube by the handle to make a bit more space in the top of the cube then top up with probably another 500 ml to get all air out,i then screw lid on and roll the cube on its sides etc,i then leave the cubes in the laundry to cool, then next day put into fermenter.

i did clean and sterilise the fermenter and cubes as usual before hand.
the hlt ,pump, and mash tun were all sterilised as usual.

i have done this for the 20 AG batches i have done.

Batz i use a product that we use at work in a butcher shop called bacban, its a sanitiser no rinse product, i have been using this for about 3 years.

fergi

i dont see anything glaringly wrong with your procedure

i still believe you have a small leak in the cube somewhere that has let some air in after it has cooled

i would have thought that the near boiling hot wort would have dealt with any nasties, and the problem has arisen after the wort has cooled

 

[eamonnfoley]

1) Since you have a pump - recirculate for 15-20 mins in last part of boil through your pump and hoses. This will sanitise your transfer equipment and you can effectively rule out the hot side.

2) Also take your kettle ball valve apart after each brew and soak overnight in cleaner.

3) Take a sample of your wort from the kettle post boil into a sanitised cup, put some foil on top with lacky-band straight away. This is a wort stability test. Come back in a couple of days and see if it still tastes/looks like unfermented wort - if yes, then you know the problem is in the cube or fermenter (i.e. the cold side).

4) Make sure your cube is completely full, and dont transfer to the cube at less than about 85C

5) Dont use any form of "cloth". Get some alfoil. And don't worry about sanitising the mash tun or boil kettle (wort is boiled). Also check your concentration / dilution on your sanitiser. If its an old bottle it may have lost its potency. Maybe try starsan or Iodophor.

 

[QldKev]

First double check the seals on the cubes. Remove the seal from the lid and clean underneath.
Also some people say it is a waste. But if I get infections in the cubes I chuck them. $15 for a new cube is easier than another lost batch. (same as fermentors)

I would also consider getting a new tap and hose, keep the other ones for spares.

Then get a different sanitizer. If starsan has a different active ingredient give it a spin, otherwise try the good old bleach and vinegar mix.

edit: I assume the cloth has been immersed in sanatiser prior to use, and you have used different cloths

Hope this helps

QldKev

 

[hando]

Enjoy the troubleshooting...

I agree get rid of the sanitised cloth. You could use foil, but I was thinking that nothing would get into the vessel when the air and steam is flowing out.

When I'm troubleshooting I only change one thing each time to see if that fixed the problem. If you change a whole heap of things then you'll never know which thing was the culprit. Doing this may cost a bit of $ in wasted brew, but could also save you $ if you're not replacing brew equipment and other consumables which you don't need to.

Good luck

 

[Ross]

Fergi,

Logically, the problem is with your cube, if it it's sealing properly, then crud trapped under the lid seal, in the the tap plug at the base, or up in the handle area, would be the most likely causes. If all look clean, I'd replace the cube.

Otherwise, the only other really suspect spot (though the pasteurisation time in the cube should eliminate) would be your ball valve from the kettle. If you are dismantling & cleaning it then ignore, but if you are only running sanitiser through it, this is not sufficient, they trap crud that is not removed by running liquid through.


Good luck in finding....

Cheers Ross

 

[doon]

By rolling cube on its sides to you mean just quickly once each side? I put my cube on its side with the lid and leave like that for a few hours

 

[Snow]

Are you using yeast starters or dry yeast? Might be an issue there.

Cheers - Snow

 

[fergi]

thanks guys for the replies,
the cubes were brand new, never had wort in them,

i roll the cubes around then leave them on side for about 5 minutes each side, always have done it this way,

will use alfoil for covering the hole in future.

i actually pulled all my ball valves apart before hand ross and cleaned them thoroughly.

DB i dont think the cube is leaking air in as i would imagine once the cube began to swell up like a soccer ball the pressure would squeeze the wort out of the lid or bung.

cheers fergi

 

[Ross]

DB i dont think the cube is leaking air in as i would imagine once the cube began to swell up like a soccer ball the pressure would squeeze the wort out of the lid or bung.

cheers fergi

Fergi,

If they are new cubes I'd put money on it being a poorly sealed cube that's sucked in bad air, there really is nothing else it could be looking at your regime.

It wouldn't necessarily leak once cooled & under postive pressure, the hot cubes are quite soft & could easily have allowed air in before cooling & sealing.
Looks like you might have a bit of wild yeast floating around your property at present.

Cheers Ross

 

[mfeighan]

1) Since you have a pump - recirculate for 15-20 mins in last part of boil through your pump and hoses. This will sanitise your transfer equipment and you can effectively rule out the hot side.

i would definitely add that to your regime so you dont have to worry about any nasties that could be there in the valve/pump