Mashing Temp Vs Carapils Question

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Deebo

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Here is a question I was just pondering..

People say to add carapils to add body to a beer. Also mashing at a higher temp leaves more dextrins (is that the correct term?) in the beer.

So say the difference between 64 and a 68 degree mash.. is there an ammount of carapils you could use to equal the ammount of dextrins lost from a low mash temp?
Or does using a low mash temp break down the dextrins in the carapils regardless?
 

bignath

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As much as i use carapils, i have absolutely no idea if it's possible or not.

But i have to ask, why do you want to find out?
 

Bribie G

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This is something that has long puzzled me as well, and possibly is why stepped mashes step up and not down.
I can't quite get my head around Palmer's How-to-brew model of the chainsaw, the pruning clippers etc. I would assume that if you mash say at 68 degrees to get a dextrinous wort then drop to 64 degrees for an hour then the Beta Amylase are going to munch those dextrins that you were aiming for.

Similar thing with the use of Carapils? Willing to be proven wrong and keen to hear from the mash gurus like Manticle the incessant poster :lol: or 4*

My thoughts would be to do a stepped mash along the lines of a Hochkurz mash, i.e. start low at 63 degrees to let the beta amylase convert what it can, then go higher to around 68 degrees so the beta amylase has its day and completes starch conversion, and add in the Carapils at that stage. ????
 

Deebo

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But i have to ask, why do you want to find out?
I was mainly just curious if the dextrins in carapils get broken down at low mash temps.. (ie is there any point adding it)
If they dont I was wondering if the result would be the same (flavour body etc) if you mashed at a lower temp but added an ammount of carapils to bring up the dextrins to equal the result of a warmer mash temperature.

Edit: My understanding from what I have read in how to brew is that if you started high the beta enzymes will get denatured and will not work once the temperature drops (I dont know if this is correct or not). Your thoughts about adding the carpils once the temperature is raised sound right to my limited knowledge.
 

malt_shovel

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I was mainly just curious if the dextrins in carapils get broken down at low mash temps.. (ie is there any point adding it)
If they dont I was wondering if the result would be the same (flavour body etc) if you mashed at a lower temp but added an ammount of carapils to bring up the dextrins to equal the result of a warmer mash temperature.

Edit: My understanding from what I have read in how to brew is that if you started high the beta enzymes will get denatured and will not work once the temperature drops (I dont know if this is correct or not). Your thoughts about adding the carpils once the temperature is raised sound right to my limited knowledge.
Yeah enzymes will denature at the higher temperatures (the purpose of mashing out will stop the majority of enzymes from further conversion all together).

Starches within Carapils have already been converted during the kilning process (it is just a light crystal after all), such that you only need to steep it to extract the converted sugars. You could it add it at the start of your mash, or steep it seperate from the mash, whatever tickles your fancy, the point being what ever constitutes the sugars have already been defined during the manufacture of the malt and will not change, you just extract what you can through whatever technique you prefer. So if you think you are risking a thin beer from mashing low, then adding some carapils will help (as will almost any crystal type of malt that has already been converted during kilning as it will by it's design leave unfermentables in the wort).

Hope that helps
:icon_chickcheers:
 

Bribie G

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Yeah enzymes will denature at the higher temperatures (the purpose of mashing out will stop the majority of enzymes from further conversion all together).

Starches within Carapils have already been converted during the kilning process (it is just a light crystal after all), such that you only need to steep it to extract the converted sugars. You could it add it at the start of your mash, or steep it seperate from the mash, whatever tickles your fancy, the point being what ever constitutes the sugars have already been defined during the manufacture of the malt and will not change, you just extract what you can through whatever technique you prefer. So if you think you are risking a thin beer from mashing low, then adding some carapils will help (as will almost any crystal type of malt that has already been converted during kilning as it will by it's design leave unfermentables in the wort).

Hope that helps
:icon_chickcheers:
So you are saying that the sugars in the Carapils, which will include a fair amount of dextrins, will not be further converted by Beta Amylase in, say, a 63 mash?
 

Yob

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um, flame suit up, but I thought the enzymes convert starches to sugars.. if the sugars are pre existing, my thought was is no further conversion can be done?? merely extracting.. er.. such is my possible misinformed thoughts

if this is not the case then I need a serious bit of time to read some more...
 

Bribie G

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Sugaz ain't sugaz. There are monosaccharides like glucose (one molecule), disaccharides like Maltose or Sucrose (two linked molecules) and so on up the chain, with different enzymes snipping those links at different temperatures.
 

Siborg

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yep, more reading then :rolleyes:
you should grab yourself a copy of Palmers "How to Brew" if you don't already have it. There's a great section on mashing/steeping amongst other great sections.

Copies are going for $20 on book depository.
 

malt_shovel

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The majority of the sugars within crystal malts (including carapils) are maillard products (different from dextrins), whereby the sugars produced during the "stewing" stage of the manufacturing of the product, react with free amino nitrogen (generated during the malting process) to give unfermentable sugars. That's the crux of it. Once it is made, it will not convert further or be fermentable (unless you add bacteria!)
 

Yob

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Copies are going for $20 on book depository.
read bits and pieces of the online version, of late I've been into the BN mostly... funny shit but great info... love the one on slants and mineral oil, most interesting, (I think it was the yeast library one)

and hell... it makes work soooo much more enjoyable :D

I should get a hard copy though for sure.

Yob
 

Ducatiboy stu

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I think this is a great question...

Deebo asked me on chat, and I thought about it, and thought.... fark... I dont know

But what he is asking is rather simple...


If I brew at the low end or high end, can I use different malts to counter-act the result of the mash temp
 

malt_shovel

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I think this is a great question...

Deebo asked me on chat, and I thought about it, and thought.... fark... I dont know

But what he is asking is rather simple...


If I brew at the low end or high end, can I use different malts to counter-act the result of the mash temp

For me, using carapils for head retention and body when you already have crystal malt in your grist is a waste of time. If there are no other crystal malts, and you dont want to alter the colour or aroma too much, carapils will work fine in a low temp mash. If you mash high, I think the only remedial action would be to throw in as much table sugar that you dare, to try and dry it out some....
 

Deebo

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The majority of the sugars within crystal malts (including carapils) are maillard products (different from dextrins), whereby the sugars produced during the "stewing" stage of the manufacturing of the product, react with free amino nitrogen (generated during the malting process) to give unfermentable sugars. That's the crux of it. Once it is made, it will not convert further or be fermentable (unless you add bacteria!)
Thanks for that, makes more sense now. So the maillard reaction does something to the sugar so that beta amylase cant break it down?
 

spog

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if? i am correct the maillard reaction is simply the amount of roasting/toasting the grain has recieved,there by giving the grain its roast level.
ie chocolate malt vs pale malt,and the associated tastes and use of the malts....cheers...spog..... ote name='Deebo' date='Jul 14 2011, 10:08 AM' post='794854']
Thanks for that, makes more sense now. So the maillard reaction does something to the sugar so that beta amylase cant break it down?
[/quote]
 

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