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Mash Rigs And Protein Haze

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Tony

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I have been doing a lot of reading trying to find out why my AG beers have chill haze.
they are crystal clear till i cool them down to 4 deg and they look like they have had a bit of milk poured in. Then as they start to warm up they become perfectly clear again.

I Brew in a 33 liter esky at the moment and am building a 3 keg brewery.
I boil in a 50 liter keg for 90 min, rolling boil all the way.

I have been batch sperging but have gone to a continuous sparge to try to cut down on the mash turb that gets into the kettle. The only brew i did like this is still cold conditioning but looks a bit better so far.

I use an imersion chiller and leave the protein matter in the bottom of the keg with about 3 or 4 liters of sadly missed beer.

B brew lagers at 10 deg and ales at between 18 and 21 depending on the yeast.

Some people have used the phrase "Depending on your mash system you may get chill or protein haze" in a couple of posts i have read.

Does anyone have any sugestions of tips that might help, im at a bit of a loss :unsure:

dont know if the pics will work but i will try to put some pics of my current setup and proposed setup on here

cheers
 

Tony

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here is the new "keg mash ton i am building fron the top with home fabricater removable false bottom
 

Tony

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Here is how i will drain the wort.
The top of the keg becane the botton of the mash ton.
the pickup is tig welded from the inside.

any coments on if this will work.
 

JasonY

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I'll be interested to hear everyones comments, I seem to get mixed results from my system.

My understanding is that chill haze is caused by the cold break being not as good as it could be (too long to cool it or not cool enough?) or not fully converting your grain leading to starches in the final beer.

How long do you mash for? Is your cooling good enough?
 

AndrewQLD

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Tony,

Your system looks great, the new mash tun will work a treat (mine is similar, with a s/s mesh false bottom). I have wrapped a blue camping matress around the mash tun and cut out a piece for the top, this insulates it really well (only 1c drop in an hour) heaps better than my old esky.

It sounds like your doing everything ok as far as the mash goes, I had a batch of Marris Otter malt that gave me severe problems with chill haze, the same recipe using another malt cleared befor it was kegged. Perhaps the malt you are using has a high protien content, if you have tons of the stuff try doing a step infusion mash with a protien rest between 50c and 54c then step up to normal mash temp.

andrew
 

Tony

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It seems to have gotten the worst haze using IMC Munich malt
I made Grumpys Smokin GT and it is very hazy.
Also made a vienna lager with lots of munich and about 1kg of Hopfner melanoiden (didnt mean to use that much, was planing on 500g but had a brain fart :p )

The brews using JW export pils and Trad ale malt have been better with a slight haze but not too bad.

The point about the cold break is worth considering. I use an imertion chiller and it takes about 15 min in the winter and 30 min in the summer to cool it to 20 to 25 deg.

I supose this is the advantage of a counter flow chiller.

any other thoughts people?
 

GMK

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I have also been told - but not tried myself - that using finings in the secondary - when the secondary is cooled in the fridge around 6 degrees - will take the chill haze out.

U add the finings/gelatine prior to racking to Cold COnditioning Cube.

If i am wrong - someone from the board will enlighten us...
 

Asher

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Hi Tony,
A few thought of mine on Chill Haze....

There's a bit more to chill haze than just mash problems. It Can be due to
-Water Chemistry
-Bad Crush/Incomplete conversion of starch
-Sparge water Ph & temperature

So maybe mash for longer, or crush finer.... And watch your sparge water Ph and temps are not too high....

I'd Also suggest a good flocculent for the boil (like Whirlfloc or Kopafloc) and make sure it hasn't been sitting on a shelf somewhere for years... My first few batched of All-Grain suffered badly from chill haze until I replaced the old Whirlfloc tablets I was given with some fresh ones from a reputable HB shop....
- Don't overdo the flocculent though because its these same proteins that aid to mouthfeel & head retention...

A month of Cold conditioning also works wonders. The first half of my kegs often show some haze, but the last half are usually crystal clear.....
If you bottle, A month+ CCing in a cube before bottling will clear allot of the haze. Otherwise store all you bottles cold after bottle conditioning....

If all else fails invest in some pewter beer mugs.... :lol: :lol:

Asher for now
 

Pumpy

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Hi Tony ,
You have some great original ideasfor you gear ,look I cant really help with the chill haze, as I suffer a little from it although it an asthetic problem which does not affect the flavour of the beer, but I reckon if you are making lagers or pilsners you may need a more complex Mash schedule .
Since I make more effort with Douging in, and mashing temperatures I get less problems with chill haze buit then I am only making simple ales .

Pumpy
 
J

Jovial_Monk

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Starch haze is permanent so you don't have that. Try stepping your mashes and adding a tsp gypsum to your strike water. 30 mins at 50C.

You can also cold condition for a month or so: chill haze forms, clumps together and flocs out. If using Irish Moss rehydrate for 15 mins b4 adding to the kettle.

Also, do not oversparge, stop sparging when the final runnings are at 1020 (corrected to 20C)

Jovial Monk
 

Tony

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I use the 1/4 to 1/2 tablet of wirlflock at 15min to go in the boil but rehydrating it is a great idea.

I crush at 0.75mm and its fairly fine but i only get 70% efficiency at 66 deg.
I usually mash for 90 min.

I am worried about cold spots in the esky efecting the conversion. Maybe i should check it more often, give it a stir and top up the temp with some boiling water.

Also i might get a bigger burner to really get it rolling

The last AG i did was a basic german lager using hophner pils and 300g hopfner cara pils. Its going to be pale as pale so it will show any chill haze i might have.
As mentioned before i fly sparged it and added a pinch of citric acid to the sparge water to try to lower the pH.

I will try the finnings in the cc tub. I used to add a teaspoon of gelatine per 23 liter batch but stopped for some reason. :blink:

Another problen i thought of is i was using CaCO3 (chalk) in my ales to harden up the water.
I have since read that this INCREASES the pH and is only really a good idea for use with stouts where all the dark roasted malts lower the pH too much.
Have since aquired gypsum and epsum salts to play with.

Might even invest in a set of pH papers.
 

Pumpy

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Tony if you want a good burner try a

Waterco A70333 HSP burner assembly(natural gas)
Waterco A70334 HSP burner assembly ( LPG)

Its just the burner, you will have to connect it ,they are really good for rolling boils 100 mj whatever that means .

They are $246.69 that includes GST
 
J

Jovial_Monk

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Ummmm, citric and tartaric acids show up in the taste of the final beer, and pH papers nowhere near accurate enough to bother with

JM
 

Tony

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oh ok i wont use the citric acid again... this is the sort of info i was after.

Jusus christ pumpy the 2 ring gas burner i use cost me $30 and a 3 ring that will boil 60 liters will cost me $45.

Im not paying that much :wacko:
 

Darren

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Jovial_Monk said:
Ummmm, citric and tartaric acids show up in the taste of the final beer, and pH papers nowhere near accurate enough to bother with

JM
Tony,
I pinch of citric acid is nothing. You will not taste it in a final product. This can be tested easily by adding a pich of acid to a litre of water. Taste it and imagine that the flavour would be 22x less in a finished beer.
I am a big advocate for pH strips. Get some good ones. They last for ever and cannot be broken, they don't need calibrating and are good for within a pH of 1. (ie you can easily tell the difference between pH 4.5 and 5.5).

Your converted keg looks good. Just wondering , if the tun drains from the bottom, what is the tube that runs up the inside of the keg?

Are you kegging your beers or bottling? Getting of chill haze if you are bottling will probably be quite difficult

I reckon the only way to get haze free beers (especially very light coloured lagers) is to filter the haze. (I don't filter my beers but have been trying to think of a cheap sanitary way to do it though)
PVPP works extremely well too, clearing a hazy lager in a day or two.

cheers Darren
 

dreamboat

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A couple of quick suggestins which have helped to eliminate haze from my Ag brews...
1 - Finer crush
2 - Recirculate a lot before sparging
3 - Cool your brew overnight and transfer off the break before pitching your yeast.
4 - if all else fails, use a ceramic mug :)



dreamboat
 

dreamboat

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Something else that comes to mind looking at the pictures of the new mash tun....
That tube running across the bottom of your keg really stresses me out... just seems to me, that with the heat of the burner on it, you would certainly caramelise, and may even burn and block the bit of brew which is in the tube. Maybe others use this system and find it ok???


dreamboat
 

Darren

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Heya,
Bottom heating of the mash tun WILL result in scorching of the grains that are sitting on the bottom. Learned that the hard way.
 

Justin

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I'll second Tony's recommendation of the addition of a bit of Calcium in your mash and sparge water (not knowing your water conditions though). Calcium impoves break formation, I was having similar problems until an experienced mate asked about what salts/additions I was making. He recommended some calcium and now I get a really good break formation and clearer beers, hope it helps.

Nice mash tun too, I was contemplating a very similar set up (if I go with a keg anyway-dealing with legal and moral issues atm, so might buy some more legitimate kettles ;) ). Only thing was that I think I would like to keep the option open of direct heating the mash tun, with a drain tube like that you'd get some super scorching of the wort but in not direct firing I thinks its a great idea (seen a few others do it this way)

Cheers anyway.
JD
 

Tony

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Darren.

The tube is a return pipe frop a pump that will pump the wort through either a coil in the HLT or an electric RIMS setup. havnt decided yet.

Its going to be one of those 3 keg systems when its done.

I bottle my beer at the moment but will bw going to kegging soon

see pic -
 

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