Mash Problems

[jimmy01]

Good Morning Everyone

Having some problems with my AG beers that I am having trouble resolving. Hope someone can help.

Problems encountered:
1) Beer is cloudy - even when warm so not chill haze
2) Poor head retention - carbonation seems ok. Even had this problem with a Hefe which was 60% wheat. Glasses are clean and do not have a problem with my extract or commercial beers.


Crush grain using a modified marga mill. Crush appears similar to others I have seen.
I use an infusion mash in a converted eski with s/steel braid. Have previously used copper manifold but same problems.
Using Brisbane Tap water - add 2 tablespns of Gypsum. Can't seem to get mash pH below 5.7.
Mash for 60-90 mins. Achieving 65-70% efficiency
Usually mash around 65 - 66C depending on recipe.
Boil for 90 minutes
Use Koppafloc in boil
No Chill
I bottle my beers and do not filter.
Have tried gelatine in fermenter - does not seem to help.

I suspect either mash pH, mash temperature or grain crush is to blame. I have checked my digtal thermometer using ice and boiling water and it seems reasonably accurate.

Any advice appreciated.


Jimmy

 

[matti]

You leave little details for advice on mash to give you any direct help.
There are product out there to help you with mash ph.
Though if you use darker grains that would sort things out and a bit of wheat help with head retension.
other Brissy brewers reckon the town water is soft so icannot say that would be the real problem.




As for bottling, at what temperatures are you conditioning and for how long?

Providing the bottle are clean. No trace of detergents, dust and other bits and pieces

IF the yeast is a dusty strain like the the bottom fermeting lager yeast,
it will take some time for the yeast to settle. The warmer the temp the longer it will take to settle out.
Optimum temps for lager yeast conditioning is around 16-18 for 2-3 weeks then as cold as 6-14 for as long as 6 weeks.
It still will stir up when twisting the bottle.

If you are using an ale yeasts allow to condition at for 2 weeks at least at room temps then at around 14 for another month.


I hpe someone can help you better then I.

 

[jimmy01]

You leave little details for advice on mash to give you any direct help.
There are product out there to help you with mash ph.
Though if you use darker grains that would sort things out and a bit of wheat help with head retension.
other Brissy brewers reckon the town water is soft so icannot say that would be the real problem.


As for bottling, at what temperatures are you conditioning and for how long?

Providing the bottle are clean. No trace of detergents, dust and other bits and pieces

IF the yeast is a dusty strain like the the bottom fermeting lager yeast,
it will take some time for the yeast to settle. The warmer the temp the longer it will take to settle out.
Optimum temps for lager yeast conditioning is around 16-18 for 2-3 weeks then as cold as 6-14 for as long as 6 weeks.
It still will stir up when twisting the bottle.

If you are using an ale yeasts allow to condition at for 2 weeks at least at room temps then at around 14 for another month.
I hpe someone can help you better then I.

Thanks Matti

Problem is worse with lighter coloured beers such as lagers and pale ales where most of the grain bill is either pale ale malt or weyermann pils malt. I usually add a bit of carapils as well to most of these recipes which should help head retention.

I ferment my lagers at 12C usually for 3 weeks and then lager for another 2-4 weeks at 5C. Usually use Saflager S23. Ales usually ferment at 20-22 then cc for 1-2 weeks. Use T-56 or S04 depending on style.

I hadn't thought about it being yeast in suspension. Would that affect head retention as well as clarity?

I am pretty scrupulous about bottle cleanliness.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[pint of lager]

Two tablespoons of gypsum? That is a huge amount.

Back it off to one teaspoon per brew.

Ask some of the other Brisbane water users what water treatment they use.

If you are worried about pH, grab some of the brewing pH buffer. At least two of the site sponsors sell it.

Make sure your boil is a rolling boil, with about two cm difference between peaks and troughs. Boil for 90 minutes. A slow simmer is not suitable for good wort clarity.

Remove all hotbreak and most of the cold break from your wort.

How much Koppafloc are you using and when are you adding it?

What sort of hops are you using? High alpha hops? Hops are foam positive, so using some decent hops helps with foam formation and retention.

Have a read of the foam stability article online at BYO, that may help you further.

 

[jimmy01]

Two tablespoons of gypsum? That is a huge amount.

Back it off to one teaspoon per brew.

Ask some of the other Brisbane water users what water treatment they use.

If you are worried about pH, grab some of the brewing pH buffer. At least two of the site sponsors sell it.

Make sure your boil is a rolling boil, with about two cm difference between peaks and troughs. Boil for 90 minutes. A slow simmer is not suitable for good wort clarity.

Remove all hotbreak and most of the cold break from your wort.

How much Koppafloc are you using and when are you adding it?

What sort of hops are you using? High alpha hops? Hops are foam positive, so using some decent hops helps with foam formation and retention.

Have a read of the foam stability article online at BYO, that may help you further.

Thanks pint of Lager

I have ordered some pH buffer for next brew. I boil for 90 mins at more than a simmer but probably not as vigorously as you describe. Will try that as well

Add 1/2 teaspoon Koppafloc (24l brew) 10 mins pre end of boil.

I leave a fair bit of trub in the kettle and transfer wort to a 2nd fermenter after it has cooled leaving cold break behind.

Hops depend on style but usually aim for about 40IBUs for my pilseners & pale ales. Use EK Golding for ales and Hallatau and Saaz for Pils.

Will look at BYO article

cheers

 

[Trent]

Jimmy
Not to try and start up a debate about no chill again, but I believe the haze at all temps you are referring to is called Permanent Haze, and i have my suspicions that it is caused by the no chilling method. I can stand to be proved wrong, and am not going to argue about the pro's/con's of the no chill, but letting the hot wort stand and cool slowly allows some of the proteins that have precipitated out at boiling temps to be re-absorbed into the beer as it is slowly cooling. Dont take that as gospel, as I cannot recall where I got my info from, but I am reasonably sure that it is correct.
I think the easiest way to get rid of the haze will be cold conditioning your beers for at least a week , preferrably 2, and use some kind of finings, isinglass is reputed to work very well, or you can just use 2 tsp of gelatin, dissolved into half a cup of 80C water, then add that to a second fermenter, rack your beer onto it COLD, after it has been in CC for a week (this gets alot of the chill and permanent haze proteins to flocculate out), then throw it back in the fridge for another week, and then rack it off the gelatin cold at the end of that week. You will find your beers will be alot clearer (and yes, there will be plenty of yeast left to carbonate in the bottle).
I have only used isinglass once, but was not happy with the results, so will be speaking with MHB this weekend to get some instructions on how he feels it should best be done, as he swears this is much better than gelatine.
Hope that this helps somehow
Trent

 

[jimmy01]

Jimmy
Not to try and start up a debate about no chill again, but I believe the haze at all temps you are referring to is called Permanent Haze, and i have my suspicions that it is caused by the no chilling method. I can stand to be proved wrong, and am not going to argue about the pro's/con's of the no chill, but letting the hot wort stand and cool slowly allows some of the proteins that have precipitated out at boiling temps to be re-absorbed into the beer as it is slowly cooling. Dont take that as gospel, as I cannot recall where I got my info from, but I am reasonably sure that it is correct.
I think the easiest way to get rid of the haze will be cold conditioning your beers for at least a week , preferrably 2, and use some kind of finings, isinglass is reputed to work very well, or you can just use 2 tsp of gelatin, dissolved into half a cup of 80C water, then add that to a second fermenter, rack your beer onto it COLD, after it has been in CC for a week (this gets alot of the chill and permanent haze proteins to flocculate out), then throw it back in the fridge for another week, and then rack it off the gelatin cold at the end of that week. You will find your beers will be alot clearer (and yes, there will be plenty of yeast left to carbonate in the bottle).
I have only used isinglass once, but was not happy with the results, so will be speaking with MHB this weekend to get some instructions on how he feels it should best be done, as he swears this is much better than gelatine.
Hope that this helps somehow
Trent

Thanks Trent

Do you think permanent haze would effect head retention also?

I did wonder about no-chill but have read the screeds about it on this forum and ruled it out because no-one seemed to report any problems with haze. I have used an immersion chiller in the past but am conscious of the water usage involved, so am trying to avoid this. Quite frankly i would rather chill but water is the problem.

I will give the cc ago in conjunction with the gelatine.

If all else fails I will try a beer using the chiller again.

Cheers

 

[jimmy01]

Two tablespoons of gypsum? That is a huge amount.

oops

checked measure. Its 2 teaspoons not 2 tablespoons.

 

[Screwtop]

Sounds like starchy/protienaceous wort to me, do you do a mash out step.

 

[jimmy01]

Sounds like starchy/protienaceous wort to me, do you do a mash out step.

Not usually. generally use a single stage infusion mash

 

[fixa]

What about mash run-off/ recirculation ? are you draining enough back into the tun prior to dumping it into the kettle?

 

[Screwtop]

What about mash run-off/ recirculation ? are you draining enough back into the tun prior to dumping it into the kettle?

A good hard boil would fix that! And tip in some boiling water to reach MO before draining first runnings then sparge with 95C water.

 

[Jazzafish]

Good Morning Everyone

Having some problems with my AG beers that I am having trouble resolving. Hope someone can help.

Problems encountered:
1) Beer is cloudy - even when warm so not chill haze
2) Poor head retention - carbonation seems ok. Even had this problem with a Hefe which was 60% wheat. Glasses are clean and do not have a problem with my extract or commercial beers.
Crush grain using a modified marga mill. Crush appears similar to others I have seen.
I use an infusion mash in a converted eski with s/steel braid. Have previously used copper manifold but same problems.
Using Brisbane Tap water - add 2 tablespns of Gypsum. Can't seem to get mash pH below 5.7.
Mash for 60-90 mins. Achieving 65-70% efficiency
Usually mash around 65 - 66C depending on recipe.
Boil for 90 minutes
Use Koppafloc in boil
No Chill
I bottle my beers and do not filter.
Have tried gelatine in fermenter - does not seem to help.

I suspect either mash pH, mash temperature or grain crush is to blame. I have checked my digtal thermometer using ice and boiling water and it seems reasonably accurate.

Any advice appreciated.
Jimmy

To help with cloudy beer:
1)Use a yeast that has a medium to high flocculation. This means the yeast will drop out of suspension quickly.
2)When fermentation is complete, drop the temperature to 2-4*C for a day. Then rack(transfer) to another fermenter/vessel that has some disolved/hydrated finnings in the bottom. Gelatine works well if hydrated and mixed through the beer. Let the gelatine go to work while you cold condition for a few days at 0-2*C.
3) As you carbonate your beer in the bottle, another fermentation will occur in the bottle. So the bottled beers will need some time standing and cold conditioned to improve the clarity.

To help with your head retenation:
1) Use at least 5% of Wheat Malt in your recipes.
2) Use well modified base malts
3) Use citric acid in your water treatment to get your mash PH between 5.2 and 5.5. Other options are acidulated malts or PH Stabilizers. Dark grains help too, but only in dark beers

 

[jimmy01]

Thanks Guys

There seems to be a few recurring themes

I will try the pH buffer and a mashout.

Will also extend cold conditioning in conjunction with finings

Fixa - I do recirculate the first couple of litres for mash - hasn't helped

Thanks all for suggestions

will let you know how I go on next brew

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Trent]

Jimmy
I am not too sure if permanent haze can reduce head retention or not. All I know is that when I used to mash one night, and let it cool in the kettle (lid on) and then boil the next night, I used to get some pretty serious chill, and permanent haze to my beers. cannot recall if they had poor head retention or not though. As others have mentioned, maybe a more vigourous boil might also help. Poor head retention, though, is generally caused by dirty glassware or similar, as there is plenty of protien in wheat beers, and they have no problems with head retention.
See if you are still having problems with that after using finings, and if you are, report back, and we will see what we can think of from there.
Trent