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Mash Hopping In An Ipa...

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T.D.

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As I alluded to in another thread, I am planning an IPA for my next brew. I want it to be a mega hoppy one. I have been meaning to try mash hopping for quite some time now and I figure this could be a good opportunity. I have tried first wort hopping before and I like the results. How will mash hopping differ, if at all? Obviously it differs in terms of the bitterness extracted, but what about the flavour contribution?
If there is one criticism of FWH I have it is that I have found the flavours to be fairly "dull". I like those nice fresh lifted aromatic hop characters. The Challenger hops I have smell beautiful but I am yet to fully extract those characters properly into a beer. Would mash hopping help to extract those delicate hop flavours and aromas in any way?

I have a S@#% load of Challenger and Goldings hop pellets that I bought a few months back. Recently I have been pushing the limits with hop levels (all in the name of getting through my stockpile before they all go stale - has nothing to do with my obvious hop addiction... ;) ) and as yet I don't think any of my beers have necessarily been "over hopped". So, why not push things a bit further I say! :D

I'll give you a basic idea of the recipe I have in mind.

~22L batch size

5kg JW ale malt
0.8kg JW Dark Munich
0.2kg JW Dark Crystal

50g Goldings FWH (or whatever is needed to get IBU to 50-55)
50g Challenger Mash Hop
25g Goldings @30mins
25g Goldings @20mins
25g Goldings @10mins
100g Challenger @ flameout

Oooohh Mumma!! 275g of hops, all contributing in some way to flavour and aroma!!! :D

I know a lot of people will think this is over the top, but the hop levels above don't worry me one little bit. The main question I have here is regarding mash hopping and whether anybody has any input on what sorts of flavours I should expect to achieve from it. Also, will the effect of a 50g mash hop addition be quite prominent?
 

Ross

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T.D. said:
As I alluded to in another thread, I am planning an IPA for my next brew. I want it to be a mega hoppy one. I have been meaning to try mash hopping for quite some time now and I figure this could be a good opportunity. I have tried first wort hopping before and I like the results. How will mash hopping differ, if at all? Obviously it differs in terms of the bitterness extracted, but what about the flavour contribution?
If there is one criticism of FWH I have it is that I have found the flavours to be fairly "dull". I like those nice fresh lifted aromatic hop characters. The Challenger hops I have smell beautiful but I am yet to fully extract those characters properly into a beer. Would mash hopping help to extract those delicate hop flavours and aromas in any way?

I have a S@#% load of Challenger and Goldings hop pellets that I bought a few months back. Recently I have been pushing the limits with hop levels (all in the name of getting through my stockpile before they all go stale - has nothing to do with my obvious hop addiction... ;) ) and as yet I don't think any of my beers have necessarily been "over hopped". So, why not push things a bit further I say! :D

I'll give you a basic idea of the recipe I have in mind.

~22L batch size

5kg JW ale malt
0.8kg JW Dark Munich
0.2kg JW Dark Crystal

50g Goldings FWH (or whatever is needed to get IBU to 50-55)
50g Challenger Mash Hop
25g Goldings @30mins
25g Goldings @20mins
25g Goldings @10mins
100g Challenger @ flameout

Oooohh Mumma!! 275g of hops, all contributing in some way to flavour and aroma!!! :D

I know a lot of people will think this is over the top, but the hop levels above don't worry me one little bit. The main question I have here is regarding mash hopping and whether anybody has any input on what sorts of flavours I should expect to achieve from it. Also, will the effect of a 50g mash hop addition be quite prominent?
[post="90292"][/post]​
TD,

I mash hop most ales I make these days, but with all the little tweaks made to every brew, I couldn't honestly tell you how much difference the mash hopping makes to hops at flame out.
I like what I get, so I guess that's what matters :) ...

Definately interested in your findings...

cheers Ross
 

T.D.

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Thanks Ross. I'll keep you posted on what ends up happening.

So you have found that mash hopping contributes more to aroma than flavour though?
 

BoilerBoy

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I hop just about every mash I do and like Ross I like the results but would be hesitant to give an absolute opinion on the matter.

The clearest indicater to me was a smoked porter I did which I mash hopped with Northdown and bittered with challenger. The Northdown came through quite evidently with a full rounded tastse .....very smooth :chug:
 

Ross

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T.D. said:
Thanks Ross. I'll keep you posted on what ends up happening.

So you have found that mash hopping contributes more to aroma than flavour though?
[post="90313"][/post]​
TD,

Basically been mash hopping with same hops used for flavour & aroma - So really can't quantify it for you - Never really felt the urge yet, to do a side by side comparison - Too many brews, too little time ;) ...
 

T.D.

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Yeah, I know what you mean. I've been meaning to do a FWH vs late addition comparison for ages - seems to always be something else I'd rather do instead!

I think I'll go with something along with the resipe outlined above (unless anybody feels like steering me clear of it). I really need to start using these hops up. I may even swap the 20min Goldings addition to mash hop too... Hmm so many friggin possible combinations!!!
 

T.D.

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Ok, I have played with the recipe a bit and here it is. Using the very fitting Twelfth Man quote, this one is not for the faint of heart or weak of bowel!

Feel free to flame as you wish - this is by far the hoppiest beer I have ever made but what the hell - I think I'm on a mission to make the hoppiest beer ever!


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Boil Size: 27.37 L
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 18.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 62.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 kg Joe White Export Pilsner Malt (3.5 EBC) Grain 85.7 %
0.80 kg Joe White Dark Munich Malt (22.0 EBC) Grain 11.4 %
0.20 kg Joe White Dark Crystal Malt (250.0 EBC) Grain 2.9 %
50.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.20%] (60 min) (FirHops 24.6 IBU
75.00 gm Challenger [7.50%] (60 min) (Mash Hop) Hops 9.7 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.20%] (30 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.20%] (20 min) Hops 6.8 IBU
30.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (10 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
25.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.20%] (10 min) Hops 4.1 IBU
45.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 3.9 IBU
100.00 gm Challenger [7.50%] (15 min) (Aroma Hop-StHops -
1 Pkgs East Coast Ale (White Labs #WLP008) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 7.00 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 18.26 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 60 min
 

T.D.

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Ross, you mentioned that you get spicey flavours from Challenger hops. Do you think the above mash hop addition will give me some of these flavours or would you recommend a genuine flavour addition for that (say 15min boil)???

Cheers :beer:
 

Ross

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T.D. said:
Ross, you mentioned that you get spicey flavours from Challenger hops. Do you think the above mash hop addition will give me some of these flavours or would you recommend a genuine flavour addition for that (say 15min boil)???

Cheers :beer:
[post="90467"][/post]​
Mate, I wouldn't go that hop schedule full stop :) . But hey, it may be great, that's what experimentation is all about. My personal choice would be challenger all the way till boil end & then EKG steeped, with IBU's max 50....
But go with it & let us know the results :)
 

T.D.

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Cripes, with the benefit of a bit of sleep (and a few less beers under my belt), this morning this beer does look like a monster! Perhaps I should tame it down a tad hey? ;)

I just need to make some inroads into this Goldings and Challenger stockpile I have!

I would like to give mash hopping a good run though to see what it does. In my new-found sanity, perhaps a better hop schedule would be:

25g Goldings FWH (or whatever will get me up to 55 IBUs)
50g Challenger (Mash Hop)
25g Goldings (20 mins)
25g Challenger (15 mins)
25g Challenger (10 mins)
50g Goldings (flameout)
50g Challenger (Dry Hop)

Any comments are welcome...
 

Duff

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T.D. said:
Cripes, with the benefit of a bit of sleep (and a few less beers under my belt), this morning this beer does look like a monster! Perhaps I should tame it down a tad hey? ;)

I just need to make some inroads into this Goldings and Challenger stockpile I have!

I would like to give mash hopping a good run though to see what it does. In my new-found sanity, perhaps a better hop schedule would be:

25g Goldings FWH (or whatever will get me up to 55 IBUs)
50g Challenger (Mash Hop)
25g Goldings (20 mins)
25g Challenger (15 mins)
25g Challenger (10 mins)
50g Goldings (flameout)
50g Challenger (Dry Hop)

Any comments are welcome...
[post="90587"][/post]​
TD,

FWIW my best IPA's haven't been dry hopped at all. I agree with those ideas on small bittering initially, and large additions from 20 or 30 minutes down to add lots of flavour and aroma while still contributing IBU's to balance the malt. Some IPA's I've done additions every 10 mins from 60 down to 10, then additions from 5 min, then each minute after that (4, 3, 2, 1) and double the quantity at flameout. It could be worth trying that on yours using the Challenger you had planned for dry hopping, plus a bit more. I only do it like this because the last few ales I brewed I haven't racked to secondary, just in primary for around 2 weeks, then straight to keg and to be honest I haven't noticed any difference at all by not using secondary. Also all of my IPA's are between 62 - 65 IBU (I like my hops).

A couple of ideas for you.

Cheers.
 

T.D.

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Thanks Duff. That's an interesting idea - I have never tried that sort of thing before, but may be worth giving a go. So is something like this what you mean:

25g Goldings FWH (or whatever will get me up to 55 IBUs)
50g Challenger (Mash Hop)
15g Challenger (50 mins)
15g Challenger (40 mins)
15g Challenger (30 mins)
15g Challenger (20 mins)
15g Challenger (10 mins)
10g Challenger (5 mins)
10g Challenger (4 mins)
10g Challenger (3 mins)
10g Challenger (2 mins)
10g Challenger (1 mins)
50g Goldings (flameout)

I dare say this will be well in excess of 55 IBUs - but I'm not worried about going to 60-65 if need be (the FWH addition might need to be tweaked or even cut altogether). The above is actually the same total quantity of hops as the previous hop schedule (looks like its more at first glance). This looks like quite an interesting method. Thanks for the suggestion.
 

Duff

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T.D. said:
Thanks Duff. That's an interesting idea - I have never tried that sort of thing before, but may be worth giving a go. So is something like this what you mean:

25g Goldings FWH (or whatever will get me up to 55 IBUs)
50g Challenger (Mash Hop)
15g Challenger (50 mins)
15g Challenger (40 mins)
15g Challenger (30 mins)
15g Challenger (20 mins)
15g Challenger (10 mins)
10g Challenger (5 mins)
10g Challenger (4 mins)
10g Challenger (3 mins)
10g Challenger (2 mins)
10g Challenger (1 mins)
50g Goldings (flameout)

I dare say this will be well in excess of 55 IBUs - but I'm not worried about going to 60-65 if need be (the FWH addition might need to be tweaked or even cut altogether). The above is actually the same total quantity of hops as the previous hop schedule (looks like its more at first glance). This looks like quite an interesting method. Thanks for the suggestion.
[post="90617"][/post]​
TD,

Looks pretty good :super: For me though I would drop the FWH as I don't think it's needed. Good luck with it.

Cheers.
 

SteveSA

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T.D. said:
25g Goldings FWH (or whatever will get me up to 55 IBUs)
50g Challenger (Mash Hop)
15g Challenger (50 mins)
15g Challenger (40 mins)
15g Challenger (30 mins)
15g Challenger (20 mins)
15g Challenger (10 mins)
10g Challenger (5 mins)
10g Challenger (4 mins)
10g Challenger (3 mins)
10g Challenger (2 mins)
10g Challenger (1 mins)
50g Goldings (flameout)
[post="90617"][/post]​
T.D.
Mash hopping is reputed to enhance hop aroma. I suspect that using the hopping schedule listed any contribution from the mash hops will be dominated by your late kettle additions and unnoticable.

If you wish to test the effect of mash hopping, I would have my last flavour addition at no later than 15 or 20 mins.
Maybe something like this will give you a better idea of mash hopping effects and satisfy your need to hop regularly :)
50g Challenger & Goldings (Mash Hop)
'XX'g Goldings to 'YY' IBUs at 60 mins
30g Challenger each at 50, 40, 30, 20 mins

Personally, I don't see the need to hop that regularly but it's something that has to be done sometimes just coz we can :super:

Steve

Edit: added 'at 60 mins'
 

T.D.

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So many options, I am starting to get a bit overwhelmed!! :blink:

Duff, I reckon the FWH addition will have to be dropped anyway - I have a feeling the IBU of this beer will be pretty high. All will be revealed when I get home tonight and enter it all into Beersmith.

Steve, thanks for the suggestion. I think I'll set up a few different recipes and then compare before I make a decision. Of course, it will be a week or two before I actually brew it, which leaves plenty of time for minds to be changed yet again... :rolleyes: . do want plenty of hop aroma with this brew so the late additions are fine with me - even if it means I won't get a full idea of the effect of the mash hops. Maybe it would be better to brew a pale ale or something using a 60min bittering addition, mash hop addition and a 20min addition. That way I will get a better idea of what effect the mash hops have. An IPA is probaby not the best time to do a genuine test of mash hopping. At this stage though I am happy if they simply add some extra aroma to what has already been contributed from the late additions.

Thanks for the input guys! :beer:
 
B

bindi

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Good read, love this quote though: :D The resulting beer was shocking. It had hop aroma and flavor that I'd never been able to get in a beer before. When the beer was warmed up a bit, one whiff put me closer to a hop field than any glass ever before. end Quote. :p
 

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