Malty Sweet English Ale - How Do I Get That Flavor?

[bear09]

Hi All.

I am at the point in my brewing life where I have the equipment and the process down. I am happy with how things turn out and I have so much passion towards this amazing hobby of mine/ours.

I just cant seem to jag the characteristics in my beer that I really want.

Anyone ever had an 'Old Speckled hen' or a 'Newcastle Brown Ale' or a 'Fursty Ferret' or a 'Ruddles County' or a 'Tetley's' or a 'John Smiths' beer? These are English style ales. i am not sure what exact category they fit into. Best Bitter, Premium Bitter? Southen English Ale?? I am not sure.

What I am sure of is that I passionatley love these beers. I love this type of beer so much I wish it was non alcoholic so that my wife would not look at me strangley at 9am on Saturday mornings when I have one going (this is occasional not always - you understand it and you know it!!). I love the way these beers leave you with a rich malty sweet finish that seems to have just a hint of bitterness to balance off the sweetness. I love the way they smell like burnt toffee with rich undertones of caramel. I am not a hop head at all.

So - how do I do it? What is the best yeast to use for this? What crystal malts really bring out the aroma of burnt toffee and caramal without making the beer too dark? What is the best bittering hop for a clean smooth finish in an english ale? What temps to people ferment them at?? What temps do people mash them at? What is the ideal FG? What is the ideal base malt?

I could go on with a bizzillion questions. Please, if you have a spare 10 mins and you have made something of this style in the past that is pretty special throw 'er in here. I and many others would be most grateful.

Cheers.

 

[manticle]

Use English base malt like marris otter.
Use a good whack of crystal
Mash high but long (or do a small rest low 60s (maybe 10 minutes) then bump up the last 50 or so minutes into high 60s for the rest.
Use english liquid yeast like 1099, 1275, 1318, pro-103 etc.
If that's not giving you what you want, look at caramelising some of the wort down separately during the boil and adding it back in.
EKG gives some good fruitiness that goes well in a malty English beer. Also try blending one or two types of crystal together - some dark and some medium.

 

[bear09]

Use English base malt like marris otter.
Use a good whack of crystal
Mash high but long (or do a small rest low 60s (maybe 10 minutes) then bump up the last 50 or so minutes into high 60s for the rest.
Use english liquid yeast like 1099, 1275, 1318, pro-103 etc.
If that's not giving you what you want, look at caramelising some of the wort down separately during the boil and adding it back in.
EKG gives some good fruitiness that goes well in a malty English beer. Also try blending one or two types of crystal together - some dark and some medium.

Hey Manticle!

You are always quick for a response and provide helpful info man - cheers for that.

Any particular type of Crystal malt for you that is best? Whats your favourite? How much should be used ideally (in %)?

Would you ever add vienna or munich malts?

Sould I only use a bittering addition and nothing else?

Cheers again.

 

[hsb]

Definitely the Maris Otter, plenty of Crystal and good blend of hops. EKG/Fuggles being the obvious candidates.
My best Bitter has been with the WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast but any decent suitable liquid yeast to bring out that fruitiness in the amount you're after.
I think a good liquid yeast makes a big difference in getting a beautiful rounded palate.

Absolutely agree about the perfect balance of bitterness and sweet malts, yum, not too fruity for me, a little dry, glug glug glug. Have you tried the Young's London Special from Dan Murphy's? Bit strong for breakfast maybe, on a weekday anyway ;-)

This is the HSB recipe from the CAMRA book:

23 litres
Pale Malt (Maris Otter) 4230g
Black Malt 55g (for colour)
White Sugar 245g (I tend to omit this)
Crystal Malt 150g
Torrified Wheat 295g
Fuggles (60min) 16g
Challenger (60min) 24g
Goldings (10 min from end) 13g

Mash 66C. 90 minutes. Boil 90 minutes. 1050/1010. 5.3%.

I used Wyeast 1098 - British Ale last time I did this but didn't think it was as nice as the WLP023...

Ferment's going to be around 17C depending on the yeast.

Happy brewing, a worthy quest, serve with a Ploughman's FTW!

-I'd think you'd want a late addition as well, just for a bit of aroma. I like the way these beers round out over time, always a little bit different.
-I'm quite generous with the crystal and if you have two types, go for it, more complexity is good imho.
- I've never used Vienna/Munich but I always keep a store of MO for Bitters.

 

[Rod]

not wanting to steal this post

but a simple K&K , I find quite tasty


Coopers English Bitter Kit


1.5kg of LDM

Coopers English Bitter Kit

made up to 18 litres

or made up to 23 litres to give a sg 1048

I know it is too simple to be any good , but

 

[jbirbeck]

Use English base malt like marris otter.
Use a good whack of crystal
Mash high but long (or do a small rest low 60s (maybe 10 minutes) then bump up the last 50 or so minutes into high 60s for the rest.
Use english liquid yeast like 1099, 1275, 1318, pro-103 etc.
If that's not giving you what you want, look at caramelising some of the wort down separately during the boil and adding it back in.
EKG gives some good fruitiness that goes well in a malty English beer. Also try blending one or two types of crystal together - some dark and some medium.

Huh...I would have said mash lower. they need to feel full, finish dry.

I've had best results so far from excluding the crystals and caramelising the first runnings but it is a pain so whack darker crystals in there and mash lower. The yeast will help with the maltiness, lovely esters assisting with fullness and flavour.

The rest I agree with.

HSB has it, 66 and down to 1010 although I'd mash lower with a whack of crystal. check the BJCP guidelines as a start (not the gospel) English Pales and Browns all finish pretty low.

 

[geoffi]

I believe liquid yeast is a must for getting the authentic character.

Lots of good'ns...I've just made a bitter with Wyeast 1968 and I recommend it highly.

 

[bear09]

Definitely the Maris Otter, plenty of Crystal and good blend of hops. EKG/Fuggles being the obvious candidates.
My best Bitter has been with the WLP023 Burton Ale Yeast but any decent suitable liquid yeast to bring out that fruitiness in the amount you're after.
I think a good liquid yeast makes a big difference in getting a beautiful rounded palate.

Hi There.

Thanks heaps for this reply this is the exact sort of thing I am after.

What I have found interesting about your post is that the first thing you mention is Plenty of crystal but then the recipe you provide only stipulates 150 grams. That seems like a very small amount to me am I wrong? Is crystal really that powerful that 150 grams could make a big impression on 4.5kg grain bill?

I have tried Youngs I bloody forgot to mention that. I like it but I certainly find it to be one of the heavier varieties. Its good though no doubt.

I also agree with what you have said about fruity. I am not a big fan of that either. Old Speckled hen is my fave. It feels thick, finishes dry and sweet and balanced well with bitterness.

I will heed the advice you have given in regards to a liquid yeast. I think the Safale BLUE dried yeast is pretty ordinary.

Thanks heaps for this reponse. Its a ripper.

 

[jbirbeck]

I believe liquid yeast is a must for getting the authentic character.

Lots of good'ns...I've just made a bitter with Wyeast 1968 and I recommend it highly.

+1 and then some

 

[bear09]

Huh...I would have said mash lower. they need to feel full, finish dry.

I've had best results so far from excluding the crystals and caramelising the first runnings but it is a pain so whack darker crystals in there and mash lower. The yeast will help with the maltiness, lovely esters assisting with fullness and flavour.

The rest I agree with.

HSB has it, 66 and down to 1010 although I'd mash lower with a whack of crystal. check the BJCP guidelines as a start (not the gospel) English Pales and Browns all finish pretty low.

Hmm another interesting point abaout caramalising the first runnings. I may have to keep this in mind as well. Do large breweries do this?

Thanks for this response as well. I am noting this all down and cannot wait until next brewday.

 

[bear09]

+1 and then some

Great stuff. Hearing you all. I shall go liquid and ditch that Dried Saf ale BLUE.

 

[bear09]

not wanting to steal this post

but a simple K&K , I find quite tasty


Coopers English Bitter Kit


1.5kg of LDM

Coopers English Bitter Kit

made up to 18 litres

or made up to 23 litres to give a sg 1048

I know it is too simple to be any good , but

Every little bit helps - cheers.

 

[MarkBastard]

What I've found works for me.

1 - Floor malted base malts.
2 - Caraaroma.
3 - Carafa T1 Special for the caramel/toffeeness

 

[hsb]

Thanks heaps <snip>

No worries, my pleasure. It's the style of beer that got me into Homebrew > AG in the first place and happy to see anyone brewing it/quaffing it.

YYR about the Crystal amount, I suppose I think of between 5-10% as being 'a lot'.
That HSB recipe above also has the Torrified Wheat supplanting some of the crystal for the mouthfeel/head aspect.

Doing a decoction is an interesting idea and would no doubt help. Maybe first time out I'd try it without, then compare it to one with a decoction.


But definitely the yeast, I was amazed at the improvement when I first moved from Safale S04 to using liquid yeast for this style. It really does 'light it up'.

I think it was Flowers Original that really put me off English Bitter for a number of years through my late teens/early 20s, way too fruity for my taste but it was often the only Bitter on tap in the wanky establishments I inhabited at the time along with the frothy muck Boddington's etc.. end of things. So I ended up going to the dark side and just drinking Guinness for a long time until moving out to Oz.

Great that there are some decent Bitters to be had in bottles out here. Ruddles was a Godsend when it first appeared everywhere. Hen's Tooth is one that seems to have disappeared. Speckled Hen is a good go-to and pretty cheap too. Quite a few Shepherd's Neame beers (Spitfire, Bishop's Finger, Master Brew, Whistable etc..) around as well, although at $10 a pop not such great value.

 

[mika]

English malts, especially the crystal

 

[Duff]

My simple ESB:

90 - 95% Ale (Marris Otter when I can get it)
5 - 10% dark crystal (145EBC like Bairds)
Northdown to bitter at 60 minutes
Challenger to flavour at 15 minutes
WY1968

Very tasty.

 

[argon]

I did a heap of reading, searching and talking to some great English style home brewers in formulation of this one below, based on Timothy Taylor's Landlord. TT use 100% Golden Promise (although speculation continues that it gets kilned exactly to their specs ) They caramelise first runnings to get that beautiful crystal profile.

I have it on good authority about their hop additions linky which i've employed here

I also concur with the mash low method for a dry finish. I set mine at 64.5C, which ended up at FG 1012 IIRC. 90min mash and a 90min boil for some kettle caramelisation will help as well. Also have a read of the enitre thread of Dr Smurto's Landlord for some great inside info for a good english bitter.

The secret is to also get good attenuation out of your yeast. In this case 1469PC. Have a read through this thread about how to handle it... especially in the first few days.

(note: this is for a double batch and next time i'll be using Thomas Fawcett's Golden Promise. Wasn't available at the time i did it)

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Landlord 2
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer:
Style: Special/Best/Premium Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 41.00 L
Boil Size: 40.83 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 20.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 31.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.20 kg Ale - Golden Promise Bairds (6.0 EBC) Grain 96.84 %
0.30 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3.16 %
45.00 gm Fuggle [5.60 %] (60 min) Hops 14.1 IBU
45.00 gm East Kent Goldings [5.60 %] (30 min) Hops 10.8 IBU
45.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 6.2 IBU
1.00 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc

1 Pkgs West Yorkshire (Wyeast Labs #1469) [StarteYeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9.50 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 25.00 L of water at 71.9 C 64.5 C
10 min Mashout Heat to 75.6 C over 2 min 75.6 C


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[felten]

One thing I'd like to point out that is just semantics and slightly OT, but caramelisation requires temps higher than 100c to achieve, which would require cooking all the water out of the wort first. So by boiling down the first runnings you're more likely just producing more maillard reactions instead.

 

[manticle]

Huh...I would have said mash lower. they need to feel full, finish dry.

That's why mash high but long (eg 90 minutes) or alternatively the little low end sacch rest followed by a higher one. Both work for me.

@OP - I normally use Joe white crystals but I would try and find some english ones - you'll probably get more character. Don't go nuts - just mix some med and dark together. I've had success with just using medium. Throw in some biscuit malt too.

As for hopping - some bitters can be very hoppy and it's delicious. Dry hopping is not out of character. Single bittering can also work well - personal taste. If you like Young's special london ale dry hopping is a must (ESB), old speckled I'd guess is probably single bittered.

 

[scrumpy]

English Liquid yeasts are a must IMO!! I generally use 1968 or London Ale III (forgot number)

Also I think taking the extra effort to get hold of some English crystals is a good idea I've been using simpsons.

Another point would maybe tweak your water chem and add some calcium sulphate to the kettle (about 14gms to 23L batch) this should round out the bitterness in the beer. oh meb water....

good luck!