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Malty Grain Bill Formulation

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Xoxon

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I'm making a dry malty AG beer to learn the flavours of the kilned malts.
It will be about 1060, a smooth noble 25 or 30 IBU and fermented at fairly low temperature with a dry Saison ale strain.

What is a good ratio for these malts?
JW Ale Malt
Vienna Malt
Munich Malt
Melanoidan Malt

I'm thinking 50%, 35%, 10%, 5%.

Can anyone comment on how that would balance the flavour or what the malty spectrum would be like?

Thanks!
 

felten

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Are you using the grains all together, or individually?

If you want to learn the flavour of a specific malt, I think it would be better to just use it by itself (vienna and munich are base malts after all), except for the melanoidin etc, which would have to be used with a base malt.
 

thermo_47

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I'd have to agree. Better off making a few smaller batches with different base malts - for example, 10% Melanoidin with a base malt of JW, same with base of Vienna, same with munich etc. Why the sasion yeast? It will colour the malts a lot if that's your purpose - to learn about the flavour of those malts.

I've made a few beers with 95% Munich and absolutely loved them. Malty as hell. Even used US-05 instead of more traditional lager strains. I find that it "shows" the flavour of the malts you use fairly transparently.

My next batches will be mixing Munich I and Munich II, or possibly even an Munich II as base malt.

My 2c :)

Jon
 

Xoxon

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Both good points, particularly about the yeast.
Maybe I could phrase the question more productively like "I'm wanting to achieve a full malt spectrum and learn how to balance a grain bill of non crystal kilned malts".
Humour me. For the sake of the excercise, pretend you have to brew a clean simple malty beer, what proportions would you use?

My starting point was;
50% JW Ale Malt
35% Vienna Malt
10% Munich Malt
5% Melanoidan Malt

All this talk of all Munich beers has me thinking;

70% Vienna Malt
25% Munich Malt
5% Melanoidan Malt

Can anyone speak to the relative flavour power of these three malts?
The aim of the game here is to get them to taste each of them in balance.
 

manticle

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I make a lovely* altbier that uses 50 % pils, 25 % vienna and 25 % munich. I have never used melanoiden (I do decoct this beer 2 -3 times), I don't really care for JW so use weyermann and I do throw in a teeny bit of biscuit and a smidge of chocolate (thus making those percentages slightly unrealistic but close enough).

Grist wise, based on that and your question, I would go twice as much pale as each of the kilned plus a small amount melanoiden (see what is generally used in other recipes).

I agree though that to find out what each malt is like, you would be better off making a base beer from the one and using a simple, neutral yeast for each of the three beers - one pale + melanoiden, one vienna + melanoiden, one munich + melanoiden, same hopping schedule for each.


*Variations on this beer have won 3 categories at state comp in 2 years so by lovely, I include others' perceptions of the beer but now run the risk of sounding like a tosser..
 

Online Brewing Supplies

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manticle said:
I make a lovely* altbier that uses 50 % pils, 25 % vienna and 25 % munich. I have never used melanoiden (I do decoct this beer 2 -3 times), I don't really care for JW so use weyermann and I do throw in a teeny bit of biscuit and a smidge of chocolate (thus making those percentages slightly unrealistic but close enough).

Grist wise, based on that and your question, I would go twice as much pale as each of the kilned plus a small amount melanoiden (see what is generally used in other recipes).

I agree though that to find out what each malt is like, you would be better off making a base beer from the one and using a simple, neutral yeast for each of the three beers - one pale + melanoiden, one vienna + elanoiden, one munich + melanoiden, same hopping schedule for each.


*Variations on this beer have one 3 categories at state comp in 2 years so by lovely, I include others' perceptions of the beer but now run the risk of sounding like a tosser..
Yes you do
Nev
 

manticle

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I'd be upset Nev but I guess, since you agree with me, that I can't really be.
 

Tony

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Xoxon said:
Both good points, particularly about the yeast.
Maybe I could phrase the question more productively like "I'm wanting to achieve a full malt spectrum and learn how to balance a grain bill of non crystal kilned malts".
Humour me. For the sake of the excercise, pretend you have to brew a clean simple malty beer, what proportions would you use?

My starting point was;
50% JW Ale Malt
35% Vienna Malt
10% Munich Malt
5% Melanoidan Malt

All this talk of all Munich beers has me thinking;

70% Vienna Malt
25% Munich Malt
5% Melanoidan Malt

Can anyone speak to the relative flavour power of these three malts?
The aim of the game here is to get them to taste each of them in balance.
Blending the darker kilned base malts wont really give you a defining flavour experience of each malt in the finnished beer.

Best bet would be to brew a couple of smaller volume beers, say 10 Liters, with 100% vienna and 100% munich malt. Split the yeast between the 2 batches.

Vienna malt is similar to pilsner with a slightly sweet honey nutty malt character and will give you a nice deep saturated golden beer.

Munich is more intense, with the flavour character tending towards sweet buiscits and toasty bread. The beer will also have a nice orange hue.

Munich 2 is quite intense when used in large quantities, and has the same flavours and Munich 1, just deeper and stronger.

I'm personally not a big fan of Melanoiden. I think it has its place as something you use for a hit of munich malt type character when your not using munich malts, as aposed to being used in conjunction with them.

All of these malts are base malts and can be used as such. I see recipes where people add 3 or 5% munich malt like its a specialty malt, and realisticly it will add next to nothing to complexity but another line in the recipe. Munich 2 is a bit of an exception, and i have always tried to keep its use limited to about 50%, mixed with Pils and vienna in beers like Munich Dunkel or Altbier. Too much and it becomes tiring to drink.

I made a Saison about 12 months ago with Weyerman vienna as the base and used BSaaz and it was one of the best beers i have ever made.......... devine!

Another tip on something i have found, is that 100% munich malt beers tend to be a bit one dimentional and boring for some reason. Hence why you usually see some Pilsner and maybe caramunich or my favorite... carabohemian mixed in for complexity and ballance without taking away from the munich character.

cheers

Edit........ to try siomething left field, use vienna or munich malt as the base malt in a big porter or stout if you want a nice firm chewey background maltiness without having to overcrowd it with crystal malts.
 

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