Mac's Sassy Red

[brendanos]

I recently tasted a brew brought back from New Zealand from the Mac's brewery called "Sassy Red", a Hoppy Best Bitter, and upon recieving some Nelson Sauvin flowers from a friend today, decided to try something similar. Just found these very helpful notes on their website:

Malt Grist: Pilsner, caramalt, crystal, dark crystal, chocolate malt
Hop Grist: Saaz
Original Gravity: 11.7oP
Final Gravity: 3.30oP
Alcohol: 4.5%
pH: 3.95
Bitterness (EBU): 30
Colour (EBC): 48
Maturation: 2 weeks
Brewers Tasting Notes: The marriage of 5 malts imparts a nutty, biscuity characteristic. Combined with fruity esters produced during a high temperature fermentation makes a complex beer balance by a huge saaz explosion.


So far I've been thinking about...

73% Weyermann Pils
10% Bairds Amber
10% Weyermann Carared
4% Weyermann Caraamber
2% Weyermann Caraaroma
1% Bairds Roast Barley

OG 1.047

Hopping to 40IBU with B Saaz and Nelson Sauvin and considerable flavour/aroma/dry hopping.

Has anyone tried brewing red beers? What's the most effective way you have achieved a bright red colour? I'm considering a bit of melanoidin in there aswell. Haven't punched this into promash yet so not sure what the colour's like.

Will this be malty enough to balance the bitterness? Will I get "biscuity, nutty" flavours from any of the crystal malts? Mash temp? Anyone want to have a crack at a recipe? This is a rough sketch, so any ideas/comments/critiques would be appreciated!

Thanks guys.

 

[jaytee]

It's awhile since I've seen the ingredients listed - the beer and the website have both had a makeover since then - but there was only B Saaz then, no Sauvin.

I'd drop the roast barley and replace with 0.5% chocolate

Hope it goes well

Cheers, jaytee

 

[sam]

Hard grain bill to get spot on.

I think the roast barley will give a better red colour than chocolate, so I'd keep it in. That should take care of most of your red, with the crystals giving a bit, but mostly flavour.

Might back off on the amber a bit though. Could end up overly malty. That said, melanoidin wouldn't go astray, maybe < 5%.

Mash it lowish, it was quite dry.

Maybe try it with 1028? Something cleanish.

It was a pretty damn good beer, I remember Dave Logsdon singing its praises when he was in Melbourne. I had a couple of six packs when I was in NZ. It's got a lot of sass, that's for sure. Cool bottle too.

Well, good luck.

sam

 

[brendanos]

It's awhile since I've seen the ingredients listed - the beer and the website have both had a makeover since then - but there was only B Saaz then, no Sauvin.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just saaz too, but I'm still keen to try the two together.

Hard grain bill to get spot on.

I think the roast barley will give a better red colour than chocolate, so I'd keep it in. That should take care of most of your red, with the crystals giving a bit, but mostly flavour.

Might back off on the amber a bit though. Could end up overly malty. That said, melanoidin wouldn't go astray, maybe < 5%.

Mash it lowish, it was quite dry.

Maybe try it with 1028? Something cleanish.

It was a pretty damn good beer, I remember Dave Logsdon singing its praises when he was in Melbourne. I had a couple of six packs when I was in NZ. It's got a lot of sass, that's for sure. Cool bottle too.

Well, good luck.

sam

Yeah I tried the 3 Ravens Bronze yesterday, which i've heard derives a lot of it's flavour from amber malt, and decided to leave it out. Too much brown colour/malt flavour. Going to brew it this weekend. Second draft...

80% Weyermann Pils
11% Weyermann Carared
4% Weyermann Caraamber
2% Weyermann Caraaroma
2% Weyermann Melanoidin
1% Bairds Roast Barley

1028 sounds like a good choice, i presume 20-22ish would be the desired range for some fruity esters. If 1469 (west yorkshire cask ale) is available by the weekend I might give that a shot.

 

[brendanos]

In search of the right malts for colouring this beer, I did a (hardly comprehensive) test of some malts I thought might be of use to me, adding 10 grams (cracked) of each to a cup of warm (75c) water to see which provided the reddest hues. I compared Weyermann's Carared, Caraamber and Caraaroma, Joe White Medium Crystal, Bairds Medium Crystal, Bairds Roast Barley and Weyermann Carafa Special III. Here are the results of my not-so-scientific experiment.

Of the Weyermann, caraamber produced no noticible red tones, only (surprisingly) amber, and was quite a lot paler than carared, despite (if i remember rightly) having a darker colour rating. Carared was a little red, though not as much as I would have presumed, and in this quantity did not provide a very dark or intense colour. Both the JW and Bairds crystal's produced a much redder, deeper colour than the carared, with the JW appearing darker, though the intensity of red in both relative to the darkness was probably about the same. The Caraaroma was much darker than the other crystal's with ruby-mahogany tones, and no noticible brown tones, so i presume quite useful in colouring a red. The last two (b roast, w csIII) I tested to decided which would be best for colour adjustment, and as 10gm produced a very dark glass, required a lot of dilution. Both appeared to contribute an amber-brown colour, neither showing much trace of red, though the weyermann seemed a whole lot darker for the same metered dilution.

So based on these findings I ditched the caraamber and replaced it with bairds xxx, as although the colour of the jw might have been slightly more effective, I think the flavour of the bairds is superior. Also ditched bairds roast barley or weyermann, as neither seemed to make a red colour, and the carafa special seemed a more efficient option.

I brewed this today:


83% Weyermann Pils
3% Weyermann Melanoidin
8% Weyermann Carared
3% Bairds Crystal
2% Weyermann Caraaroma
1% Weyermann Carafa Special III

Anticipated OG 1.047 in 23L
Actual OG 1.056 in 21L
Anticipated EBC 36.6

15g B Saaz 6.7% for 30 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 15 mins
15g Nelson Sauvin (flowers) 12.2% for 15 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 12 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 12 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 9 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 9 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 6 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 6 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 3 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 3 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 0 mins
15g Nelson Sauvin (flowers) 12.2% for 0 mins

Will dry hop in secondary with:
10g B Saaz 6.7%
20g Nelson Sauvin (flowers) 12.2%

Haven't checked bitterness with new specs since the brew, so for now assuming approx 40.

Mashed at approx 65 and fermenting with 1028 at 20ish.

Will report back regarding the colour of the beer in a few weeks for future AHB reference. I don't want to get my hopes up but so far it's looking quite red, though maybe a little dark. Promash shows this beer being lighter than Mac's, but I'll believe that when I see it. And in the end even if the colour ends up way off, the hops will have made it worthwhile.

Cheers.

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

brendanos,

how did your Sassy attempt turn out.

I reckon this is one of the better beers available here in Australia and I am keen to give it a go myself but perhaps using D Saaz.

C&B
TDA

 

[jayse]

Evening trendsetters.

Brought a box of this the other day to sit and enjoy while watching the grand final, at least the beer was good :lol:

Actually the beer is fantastic. Can give it a big thumbs up for drinakblity too as there wasn't much left of the box sunday morning.

Just found these very helpful notes on their website:

Colour (EBC): 48

That number looks a bit high, more like 28 I would think

I'd drop the roast barley and replace with 0.5% chocolate

I'd be looking at using choc instead myself aswell

Hard grain bill to get spot on.

I think the roast barley will give a better red colour than chocolate, so I'd keep it in. That should take care of most of your red, with the crystals giving a bit, but mostly flavour.

Good point about the red colour, still I'am thinking choc malt though, Damn right on the hard to get spot on with the malt bill I would think. There a lovely dark crystal aroma off raisens and toffee. The crystal does give more than just a bit though i'd say its the main part but it is very rounded and lovely. Not cloying at all or anything.

Might back off on the amber a bit though. Could end up overly malty. That said, melanoidin wouldn't go astray, maybe < 5%.]

Yeah I don't think you'd want any amber in this beer, can't pick any of that type of character in there

Mash it lowish, it was quite dry.

Maybe try it with 1028? Something cleanish.

Yeap the lowish mash temp and 1028 sounds pretty spot on. Although theres quite a few yeast options that would work quite well. Almost what ever british ale yeast that you have on the go would do well. It is very clean though and not much yeast fruit character, the fruit is more the dark dried fruits/ fruit cake like to a degree from the darker crystal. Saying that its not over the top at all though, actually its almost perfect.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just saaz too, but I'm still keen to try the two together.
Yeah I tried the 3 Ravens Bronze yesterday, which i've heard derives a lot of it's flavour from amber malt, and decided to leave it out. Too much brown colour/malt flavour. Going to brew it this weekend. Second draft...

80% Weyermann Pils
11% Weyermann Carared
4% Weyermann Caraamber
2% Weyermann Caraaroma
2% Weyermann Melanoidin
1% Bairds Roast Barley

1028 sounds like a good choice, i presume 20-22ish would be the desired range for some fruity esters. If 1469 (west yorkshire cask ale) is available by the weekend I might give that a shot.

That recipe is looking pretty good although I'am not familar with caraamber so not sure there and its adding up to 17% crystal all up which I think is a bit over board. Certainly the carared and caraaroma I think is a great choice.

In search of the right malts for colouring this beer, I did a (hardly comprehensive) test of some malts I thought might be of use to me, adding 10 grams (cracked) of each to a cup of warm (75c) water to see which provided the reddest hues. I compared Weyermann's Carared, Caraamber and Caraaroma, Joe White Medium Crystal, Bairds Medium Crystal, Bairds Roast Barley and Weyermann Carafa Special III. Here are the results of my not-so-scientific experiment.

Of the Weyermann, caraamber produced no noticible red tones, only (surprisingly) amber, and was quite a lot paler than carared, despite (if i remember rightly) having a darker colour rating. Carared was a little red, though not as much as I would have presumed, and in this quantity did not provide a very dark or intense colour. Both the JW and Bairds crystal's produced a much redder, deeper colour than the carared, with the JW appearing darker, though the intensity of red in both relative to the darkness was probably about the same. The Caraaroma was much darker than the other crystal's with ruby-mahogany tones, and no noticible brown tones, so i presume quite useful in colouring a red. The last two (b roast, w csIII) I tested to decided which would be best for colour adjustment, and as 10gm produced a very dark glass, required a lot of dilution. Both appeared to contribute an amber-brown colour, neither showing much trace of red, though the weyermann seemed a whole lot darker for the same metered dilution.

So based on these findings I ditched the caraamber and replaced it with bairds xxx, as although the colour of the jw might have been slightly more effective, I think the flavour of the bairds is superior. Also ditched bairds roast barley or weyermann, as neither seemed to make a red colour, and the carafa special seemed a more efficient option.

Thats a awesome little of stuff right there, top work.

I brewed this today:
83% Weyermann Pils
3% Weyermann Melanoidin
8% Weyermann Carared
3% Bairds Crystal
2% Weyermann Caraaroma
1% Weyermann Carafa Special III

Anticipated OG 1.047 in 23L
Actual OG 1.056 in 21L
Anticipated EBC 36.6

15g B Saaz 6.7% for 30 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 15 mins
15g Nelson Sauvin (flowers) 12.2% for 15 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 12 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 12 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 9 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 9 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 6 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 6 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 3 mins
10g Nelson Sauvin 12.2% for 3 mins
10g B Saaz 6.7% for 0 mins
15g Nelson Sauvin (flowers) 12.2% for 0 mins

Will dry hop in secondary with:
10g B Saaz 6.7%
20g Nelson Sauvin (flowers) 12.2%

Haven't checked bitterness with new specs since the brew, so for now assuming approx 40.

Mashed at approx 65 and fermenting with 1028 at 20ish.

Will report back regarding the colour of the beer in a few weeks for future AHB reference. I don't want to get my hopes up but so far it's looking quite red, though maybe a little dark. Promash shows this beer being lighter than Mac's, but I'll believe that when I see it. And in the end even if the colour ends up way off, the hops will have made it worthwhile.

Cheers.

So as TDA asked, whats the verdict?


At only 50 bucks a box I'll be going back for more and hopefully have some more too offer than the ranting i just posted anyway back to you guys..........


Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
Jayse

 

[tangent]

i'm keen to head over to NZ and try a heap of fresh beer because I'm loving the imports!

 

[warrenlw63]

Tried this myself last week. Great value for $15 per six pack. The Hoprocker ain't half bad either. :beerbang:

Bottles are a nostalgia trip also. Those ring pulls remind me of old Coopers stubbies.

Warren -

 

[Jazman]

some good micros over there also a lot of crap will be over again in just over a years time also then u can bring back cheap hops via nz hopsget em to deliver to last point of call then declare to customs easy as

 

[warrenlw63]

Just a bump on this one.

I'm contemplating an approximation of this beer. Has anybody done anything worthy of the real thing?

The burning question is do they use NZ or Czech Saaz hops? I'm thinking of trying it with B Saaz. Also curious about the IBUs. I was thinking around 35.

Any ideas are openly accepted.

Warren -

 

[jaytee]

Czech Saaz Warren ! How could they ?

I thought it was B

Try this for useful hints on the grist though http://www.thebrewerybar.co.nz/sassy-red/

cheers, jaytee

 

[warrenlw63]

Thanks Jaytee

Yeah I read that... Funny part is on their other beers if they use NZ hops they stipulate it. I'd be thinking of B Saaz myself though.

Only real sticking point I'm having is the conversion of EBUs to IBUs. I was thinking around 35 IBUs would be close enough.

Warren -

 

[Stuster]

Only real sticking point I'm having is the conversion of EBUs to IBUs. I was thinking around 35 IBUs would be close enough.

EBU and IBU are the same I think.

I always assumed they were B Saaz hops, but not sure. Have to do some more research.

What yeast were you thinking of using?

 

[jaytee]

I failed miserably in attempting to brew a close replica so ignore anything else I say about the beer in question !

In the end I just adapted the failed recipe to my tastes for a light quaffing ale
Dropped the OG to 1.040 and IBU's to the low 20's but with a truckload of B Saaz at 5 or 10 minutes

 

[warrenlw63]

EBU and IBU are the same I think.

I always assumed they were B Saaz hops, but not sure. Have to do some more research.

What yeast were you thinking of using?

Thanks Stu... Almost certain that's what I'll use. Looking like 30 IBUs then.

As for yeast? Probably US-05 for now. Though I was contemplating something a little more English in Character. Might even use Wyeast 1028. Not too sure yet.

Warren -

 

[jaytee]

I usually brew my version with W1968 .. but my closer attempt was with W1028 .. but take my comments lightly ..

I failed miserably in attempting to brew a close replica so ignore anything else I say about the beer in question !

 

[warrenlw63]

My first draft. Open to interpretation though.

Slutty Red

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

08-B English Pale Ale, Special/Best/Premium Bitter

Min OG: 1.040 Max OG: 1.048
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 12 Max Clr: 41 Color in EBC

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 45.00 Wort Size (L): 45.00
Total Grain (kg): 9.50
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 11.93
Anticipated EBC: 37.9
Anticipated IBU: 31.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.1 0.10 kg. Weyermann Carafa Special III Germany 1.035 1748
1.6 0.15 kg. Bairds Dark Crystal UK 1.034 250
2.6 0.25 kg. Weyermann Caraaroma Germany 1.034 470
10.5 1.00 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 19
42.1 4.00 kg. BB Pale Malt Australia 1.037 3
42.1 4.00 kg. BB Ale Malt Australia 1.038 8

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.00 g. B Saaz Whole 7.70 25.6 60 min.
30.00 g. B Saaz Whole 7.70 0.0 Dry Hop
20.00 g. B Saaz Whole 7.70 1.7 5 min.
30.00 g. B Saaz Whole 7.70 0.0 0 min.
20.00 g. B Saaz Whole 7.70 2.0 10 min.
30.00 g. B Saaz Whole 7.70 2.6 5 min.


Yeast
-----

DCL Yeast US-05 American Ale
or Wyeast 1028 London Ale

Warren -

 

[jaytee]

That grainbill is pretty similar to what I've done in the past - though I have been using the bog standard bairds medium & dark crystal & chocolate.

I started adding upto 5% wheat when I brewed as an extract & grains.
Not true to the orignal and probably not needed in an AG either, but it made a big difference in an extract beer.
I also brewed it as my first AG but with MO - a good beer - but nowhere near what I was expecting and I was bitterly disapointed.

Not sure about the hops, my balance is more like 60% IBUs at 60 min and 40% at the 10 or 5 min mark - but that's my preference only, not a comment on Sassy Red.

Over to others with a better handle on the beer on the hops count anyway.

cheers, jaytee

 

[barneyhanway]

I'd always thought it was New Zealand D Saaz (now called "Riwaka") they used in Sassy Red...