Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

Bougie!st

Member
Joined
29/1/16
Messages
19
Reaction score
3
+1 for corny keg. Thats what I age my belgians in. Why don't you want to use one?
Just don't want to tie one up with mead, especially my first batch - I only have a few. And I have some of these aging belgians/barleywines.

Reason for asking about the FZ is that I went to a stainless unitank a little while ago. I have the FZ conical unitank sitting around collecting dust. I can buy a corney, or a glass fermenter, but figured if the FZ could prevent O2 ingress, then it would be able to be used for something. Just trying to save money and prevent wastage.

Seeing that the FZ I have is sold as a unitank, meaning it can be kept for serving too, I wondered what that meant for capability to maintain gases where you want them (ie CO2 in for serving/carbonation and O2 out) in the longer term. As noted per the KL FZ unitank website - "Uni tanks are conical fermenters used both for fermentation and for carbonating and serving finished beer."

Being sold as a unitank for serving, that would indicate a certain period (I would expect adequately long - maybe a couple of months - but that depends, I guess, on how quickly you drink it!) that it will prevent gas exchange. If it is overall fairly permeable to gas in that time, then I can't see that it is particularly useful as a serving unitank. That is, unless you are going to smash your batch within a very short period of time. I never tried it for serving, only used it for carbonation/pressure ferment, then transferred to the corney for serving.

That is why I thought I'd ask in this thread - so the KL guys could answer with some technical information. I appreciate the suggestions, but was after that more specific answer, if they are available.
 

KegLand-com-au

www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel
AHB Sponsor
Joined
8/1/18
Messages
2,081
Reaction score
1,325
Location
Australia
Quick question about the fermzilla. My father in law is keen for me to have a crack at mead. I was going to do the primary in a plastic bucket, then want to transfer for clearing/aging. How is the fermzilla for long term storage? Is there much risk of oxygen ingress over 6-12 months of aging? Or is it better to buy a glass carboy, recognising that their is no perfect answer, except maybe a keg, which I don't want to use?

PET that has no oxygen barrier is not designed for long term storage of beer as you get a small amount of oxygen ingress through the PET plastic wall. Dont get me wrong, PET is still a great O2 barrier and way better than PE, PP or other commonly used plastics. In fact it is orders of magnitude better than HDPE that many customers still use for fermenters. HDPE is like a sponge letting gas pass in both directions.

For Pilsners, NEIPA, or other light color and light flavored beers I would not put the beer into the fermenter for more than 2 months and I am confident you will get less than 1ppm ingress through the wall of a 30L all rounder.

For Ales, slightly darker beers you can allow your beer to sit in the fermenter for about 4 months and you will get about 2ppm ingress

For dark beers like stout, English ales, Triple, Porters you can store them in the Fermzilla for more than 12 months. At 12 months you will get 6ppm ingress but some of these dark beer styles are very robust to oxidation and even high exposure to oxygen might not be anywhere near as noticeable.

Some retailers sell the FermZilla products or other competing PET fermenters/kegs as suitable for long term storage but the reality is they are not. Also some customers think that if you positively pressurize the vessel it will not let oxygen through the wall of the vessel but this is also not true. Oxygen will permeate into the beverage even if the container is under pressure. Pressure doesn't solve this problem.

So really you have to look at your product and determine how oxygen sensitive is it. Is 1ppb the limit or 100ppm? I have limited understanding of Mead but to my understanding mead is much more tolerant to oxygen exposure than beer so I would have thought that even upto 10ppm or more would still have no noticeable effect on the flavor of mead but I am not an expert in mead.

The issue with corny kegs is the large lid o-ring. This large lid o-ring can also allow gas to permeate through this seal. We have been actively been doing some research on this exact topic and I think we will be making some improvement to corny kegs to tackle this in the future.

Even with glass carboy I often see people use these thinking they have no oxygen ingress. The reality is that the glass is impermeable but the silicone bungs have high oxygen transmission rate making it even worse than the PET alternative. Some bung materials are way better and some are way worse but often when you purchase the bung insufficient information is supplied to determine what the material is and thus make it difficult to determine the oxygen transmission properties.

As you know we have these 8L PCO38 kegs where we use a blend of plastics to greatly increase the barrier properties and prevent oxygen ingress. Even with this product we do not recommend storage in this keg for more than 6 months.

After writing this post I really think more education is necessary on this topic and I think it might help if we do a video on topic as oxygen exposure is clearly becoming a more important subject especially as home brewers continually chase higher quality.
 

akx

Well-Known Member
Joined
24/5/17
Messages
145
Reaction score
49
Location
Gordon NSW
Some bung materials are way better and some are way worse but often when you purchase the bung insufficient information is supplied to determine what the material is and thus make it difficult to determine the oxygen transmission properties.
Do you guys sell anything besides silicone bungs? How will they hold up to O2 ingress and what's the best material to use? I'm using glass for long aged sours (1 year +) and mead (4 months +)
 

Good Truble

Active Member
Joined
3/2/22
Messages
31
Reaction score
5
Location
USA
@KegLand-com-au - Thank you for your response on oxygen exposure.....but are you saying fermzilla (all-rounder) > keg (because o-ring) > glass carboy (because bung) for storage over 3-4 months?
 

KegLand-com-au

www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel
AHB Sponsor
Joined
8/1/18
Messages
2,081
Reaction score
1,325
Location
Australia
Do you guys sell anything besides silicone bungs? How will they hold up to O2 ingress and what's the best material to use? I'm using glass for long aged sours (1 year +) and mead (4 months +)

At the moment we only sell silicone bung. You can purchase bungs that are made from NBR or Latex rubber and these have much lower oxygen transmission rate (OTR). With that said the issue with NBR and Latex rubber perishes relatively quickly and is not particularly good with chemical resistance. For instance NBR will quickly get attacked by acetic acid (sour beverages often have acetic acid in them) causing the bung to break down.

We have done a lot of testing on FermZilla All Rounders and 19L stainless corny type kegs. If you use silicone o-ring lid seal in the keg the OTR with both will be similar. However if you change to the NBR rubber o-rings in the 19L keg this will be significantly better than the FermZilla. We are working on a new rubber compound for keg lids but it's difficult to get "spring" properties as good as silicone.

I really think you have to appreciate that most packaging (besides aluminum can) have some oxygen ingress and you probably need to work out what level is acceptable and then once you know this you can make sure the storage vessel is suitable.


So going back to your question here:
fermzilla (all-rounder) > keg (because o-ring) > glass carboy (because bung)
if you have a silicone bung in a glass carboy it would probably be the worst. If you use a rubber bung it might be the best option. keg could be the best option if you are using a rubber o-ring but if you are using a silicon one it also would not be good. So it's difficult to simply say one is better than the other without taking into account what seals are being used. The FermZilla lid seals very tight with EPDM seal so it's sealing performance is far superior to the Carboy silicone bung and Keg lid O-ring but if the downfall of the FermZilla all rounder is that you get a small amount of transmission through the PET wall.

Also nothing would be stopping you coating the FermZilla either. Epoxy paint has very good oxygen blocking effect (which is why it's used on metal to guard against rust). Nothing would be stopping you coating the FermZilla with a clear coat of epoxy and this would also stop oxygen really well and probably give you glass like properties with respect to OTR.
 
Last edited:

Bougie!st

Member
Joined
29/1/16
Messages
19
Reaction score
3
At the moment we only sell silicone bung. You can purchase bungs that are made from NBR or Latex rubber and these have much lower oxygen transmission rate (OTR). With that said the issue with NBR and Latex rubber perishes relatively quickly and is not particularly good with chemical resistance. For instance NBR will quickly get attacked by acetic acid (sour beverages often have acetic acid in them) causing the bung to break down.

We have done a lot of testing on FermZilla All Rounders and 19L stainless corny type kegs. If you use silicone o-ring lid seal in the keg the OTR with both will be similar. However if you change to the NBR rubber o-rings in the 19L keg this will be significantly better than the FermZilla. We are working on a new rubber compound for keg lids but it's difficult to get "spring" properties as good as silicone.

I really think you have to appreciate that most packaging (besides aluminum can) have some oxygen ingress and you probably need to work out what level is acceptable and then once you know this you can make sure the storage vessel is suitable.


So going back to your question here:
fermzilla (all-rounder) > keg (because o-ring) > glass carboy (because bung)
if you have a silicone bung in a glass carboy it would probably be the worst. If you use a rubber bung it might be the best option. keg could be the best option if you are using a rubber o-ring but if you are using a silicon one it also would not be good. So it's difficult to simply say one is better than the other without taking into account what seals are being used. The FermZilla lid seals very tight with EPDM seal so it's sealing performance is far superior to the Carboy silicone bung and Keg lid O-ring but if the downfall of the FermZilla all rounder is that you get a small amount of transmission through the PET wall.

Also nothing would be stopping you coating the FermZilla either. Epoxy paint has very good oxygen blocking effect (which is why it's used on metal to guard against rust). Nothing would be stopping you coating the FermZilla with a clear coat of epoxy and this would also stop oxygen really well and probably give you glass like properties with respect to OTR.
Wow! These are awesome replies!

Thank you so much for the information. Looking forward to what you have to bring in the future (both education and product).

I suspect that, considering most mead is recommended in glass, you are right and that the FZ would be a better option. It is only my first one, so I otherwise have absolutely no idea. A lot of the resources out there recommend glass, so I suspect that it can hold up to some O2.

In reality, it depends on the style too, doesn't it? For example, a lambic aged in barrels is definitely oxidised, and some of the guys that specialise in this style recommend not worrying about oxidation for that. Of course, that would be totally unacceptable in a NEIPA.

Always something more to learn......
 

akx

Well-Known Member
Joined
24/5/17
Messages
145
Reaction score
49
Location
Gordon NSW
fermzilla (all-rounder) > keg (because o-ring) > glass carboy (because bung)
Really appreciate the info. Thanks. I'll cheekily suggest that the pellicle in my carboy is keeping my sours safe. Good to hear about the other options for bungs. Keep up the great work.
 

KegLand-com-au

www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel
AHB Sponsor
Joined
8/1/18
Messages
2,081
Reaction score
1,325
Location
Australia

We are still making small changes to the design but the pricing is likely to be a little over $1k. Pricing at the moment is all over the place with raw materials changing on a weekly basis.

I have been using this BrewZilla 100L at home and really like it. Lifting the malt pipe out is really a 2 person job or one that you need a pully like this to get the job done.

As we have these large BrewZilla 100L units and the 65L units do you think you guys would be interested in us making a brewing stand that has an overhead crane on top to make it easier to lift the malt pipe out. If we use a manual hand winch crane I think the cost for a stainless brewing stand would be about $400. You could use it to store the BrewZilla on. The stand would allow you to lift out the malt pipe, rotate the crane arm so it moves the malt pipe to the side and then lower the malt pipe into a bin or barrow or onto the ground.

Also with the BrewZilla 100L what type of chiller would you guys like to see. We can make a more efficient immersion chiller similar to the Hydra or if you would prefer counter flow we could just include something like this instead:
https://www.kegland.com.au/wort-heat-exchanger-counterflow-chiller-duotight-bundle.html
What are your preferences? Keen to get your input on this one.
 

mynameisrodney

Well-Known Member
Joined
11/9/08
Messages
343
Reaction score
129
We are still making small changes to the design but the pricing is likely to be a little over $1k. Pricing at the moment is all over the place with raw materials changing on a weekly basis.

I have been using this BrewZilla 100L at home and really like it. Lifting the malt pipe out is really a 2 person job or one that you need a pully like this to get the job done.

As we have these large BrewZilla 100L units and the 65L units do you think you guys would be interested in us making a brewing stand that has an overhead crane on top to make it easier to lift the malt pipe out. If we use a manual hand winch crane I think the cost for a stainless brewing stand would be about $400. You could use it to store the BrewZilla on. The stand would allow you to lift out the malt pipe, rotate the crane arm so it moves the malt pipe to the side and then lower the malt pipe into a bin or barrow or onto the ground.

Also with the BrewZilla 100L what type of chiller would you guys like to see. We can make a more efficient immersion chiller similar to the Hydra or if you would prefer counter flow we could just include something like this instead:
https://www.kegland.com.au/wort-heat-exchanger-counterflow-chiller-duotight-bundle.html
What are your preferences? Keen to get your input on this one.
If you made a chiller comparable with the hydra it would definitely be on my shopping list (for a 65L).

As for the brew stand, biggest issue for me indoors is that I need my rangehood up high to allow for the malt pipe to be lifted out. if you can make a brew stand with flexible/moveable steam extraction that would be awesome. Again compatible with smaller systems, not just 100L would be ideal.
 

ozdevil

Well-Known Member
Joined
4/3/04
Messages
321
Reaction score
105
As we have these large BrewZilla 100L units and the 65L units do you think you guys would be interested in us making a brewing stand that has an overhead crane on top to make it easier to lift the malt pipe out. If we use a manual hand winch crane I think the cost for a stainless brewing stand would be about $400. You could use it to store the BrewZilla on. The stand would allow you to lift out the malt pipe, rotate the crane arm so it moves the malt pipe to the side and then lower the malt pipe into a bin or barrow or onto the ground.

Not that i am looking at a 100l in my rental i dont think my landlord would approve me getting the required power outlet lol
but I think a good Brewing stand would be great addition specially if it can be made portable , As i brew under a carport out front its not the ideal place to store a stand as such and would have to get this in a back shed with ease out of prying eyes and 5 finger discount artists.

but love the idea of that
 

dibbz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26/8/14
Messages
168
Reaction score
63
Location
North Brisbane
Not sure you can install anything larger than a 20a circuit in a single phase house in QLD any longer, at least with EV chargers. Probs just hijack the kitchen circuit.
 

Codemunk3y

Member
Joined
16/2/22
Messages
12
Reaction score
7
Location
Hobart
We are still making small changes to the design but the pricing is likely to be a little over $1k. Pricing at the moment is all over the place with raw materials changing on a weekly basis.

I have been using this BrewZilla 100L at home and really like it. Lifting the malt pipe out is really a 2 person job or one that you need a pully like this to get the job done.

As we have these large BrewZilla 100L units and the 65L units do you think you guys would be interested in us making a brewing stand that has an overhead crane on top to make it easier to lift the malt pipe out. If we use a manual hand winch crane I think the cost for a stainless brewing stand would be about $400. You could use it to store the BrewZilla on. The stand would allow you to lift out the malt pipe, rotate the crane arm so it moves the malt pipe to the side and then lower the malt pipe into a bin or barrow or onto the ground.
Quick question if you can- what is the height and diameter of the malt pipe in the 100L?
 

CJW

Well-Known Member
Joined
22/3/15
Messages
109
Reaction score
52
What are your preferences? Keen to get your input on this one.
I have been going to make a stand like you describe, with the overhead lift as you mention. Anything I made would be from mild steel and one of the reasons I have not done it yet, stainless would be ideal.

Some thoughts...
* overhead lift is essential (for my use)
* ability to collapse or fold lift point for storeage desireable
* optional high quality locking castors
* a dust proof cover vailabkle for storage
* mounting point for stainless coolossus or similar third party coolers
* mount point for pumps
* mounting points on stand for additional hardware
* storeage/hooks for mash paddle, lids etc
* compatible with other breweries like Braumeister dimensions

A modular design would be really cool, a bit like SS Brewtech "brew cubes", a cheaper locally available alternative would be great.

eg If having a big brew day you might use a seperate boiler so you mash-in the second batch quicker. So having a second stand for the like of a digiboil would be great. Being able to connect two stands together would be cool and maybe attractive for 3V brewers.
 

Good Truble

Active Member
Joined
3/2/22
Messages
31
Reaction score
5
Location
USA
I second collapsible. I currently use a collapsible table. It certainly helps reduce the overall (permanent) footprint needed for brewing, and allows me to set up my 35L in different spots. A collapsible table designed for brewing and pulley attachment would great.
 

Ballaratguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
21/6/17
Messages
324
Reaction score
96
I use a modified garage creeper for my 40Lt Guten
I’m also in the process of designing and building a lifting job (collapsible as I want to store the entire thing under a bench)
I’m going to use a 12v linear actuator for the lift (using 12v as I’ve got my brewery wired for 12v with solar)
I’ll see once it’s made as for size as I may have to make the jib arm telescopic just so it will fit under the bench when collapsed
 

bduza

Active Member
Joined
5/3/20
Messages
32
Reaction score
4
Location
Canberra
A question re: the 4L oxebar kegs that are on their way...
I'd assumed they're just going to be same diameter but half the height of the 8L kegs.
But you know what they say about "ass-u-me"ing things.
Is that what they'll be or is the plan for different dimensions?
 

Latest posts

Top