K&k Boil Qs

[james82t]

When adding hops to the boiling ldm (or BE etc) what ratio is needed, eg 2l water and 1kg of ldm. Does this matter for K&K beer??

i have searched and found hop utilisation it think.

should i use less of the ldm and will this change flavours??

 

[manticle]

Hop utilisation drops as gravity rises. Harsh compounds can be released from hops if gravity is too low* so the most often recommended gravity for an extract boil is between 1030 and 1050.

To achieve this, 100g of malt extract to every litre of water should see you hit around 1040.

If you are using a kit in the boil as well/instead of DME, you may need to measure the gravity in order to calculate your hop additions.

There are 3 ways to approach -

1. full boil which is presumably not practical for most KK and extract brewers. Will give the best results.
2. Partial boil with the same gravity of wort as the intended recipe (pre-boil NOT post boil gravity). Next best bet if you are following someone else's AG recipe and converting to extract.
3. Gravity of 1030-1050 with remaining fermentables added in the last 5 or 10 minutes of boiling.

*supposedly - I've never tried myself

 

[Impy]

Hop utilisation drops as gravity rises. Harsh compounds can be released from hops if gravity is too low* so the most often recommended gravity for an extract boil is between 1030 and 1050.

To achieve this, 100g of malt extract to every litre of water should see you hit around 1040.

If you are using a kit in the boil as well/instead of DME, you may need to measure the gravity in order to calculate your hop additions.

There are 3 ways to approach -

1. full boil which is presumably not practical for most KK and extract brewers. Will give the best results.
2. Partial boil with the same gravity of wort as the intended recipe (pre-boil NOT post boil gravity). Next best bet if you are following someone else's AG recipe and converting to extract.
3. Gravity of 1030-1050 with remaining fermentables added in the last 5 or 10 minutes of boiling.

*supposedly - I've never tried myself

[citation needed]

The Basic Brewing guys tested this brewing "fact" and found some parts valid and some not.

For extract brewers the effect is almost nil. Sugars dissolved in water doesn't effect the solubility of hop bittering compounds. Most brewers think of sugars in the wort crowding out hop utilization, but this isn't correct.

High gravity all grain worts effect hop bitterness (although not all that much) because there is more particulate/break material for the alpha acids to stick to, and then drop out before drinking. For extract brewers this isn't a problem since their sugars don't contain much particulate matter.

In other words, if you're doing extract, don't worry about matching gravity for your boil.

 

[james82t]

so for basic kit and kilo boil gravity doesnt matter that much? i can boil 1kg of ldme chuck in hops add to fermenter with can?

 

[manticle]

[citation needed]

The Basic Brewing guys tested this brewing "fact" and found some parts valid and some not.

For extract brewers the effect is almost nil. Sugars dissolved in water doesn't effect the solubility of hop bittering compounds. Most brewers think of sugars in the wort crowding out hop utilization, but this isn't correct.

High gravity all grain worts effect hop bitterness (although not all that much) because there is more particulate/break material for the alpha acids to stick to, and then drop out before drinking. For extract brewers this isn't a problem since their sugars don't contain much particulate matter.

In other words, if you're doing extract, don't worry about matching gravity for your boil.

Citation is definitely needed. I have found some references to the test you speak of which suggests that while it may not be the sugar itself that affects utilisation, the tables and formulae worked out around hop utilisation are still valid (different cause, same effect) and that it affects extract wort as well as AG wort.

Unfortunately I can't acces the BN show currently as my internet speed is moving at one fifth of a bee's dick every half hour but I would love some more info on this - particularly journal articles actually measuring IBU in relation to gravity.

Always happy to have conventional wisdom/fact/etc challenged and while I can't currently use it, a link to the relevant BN show would be useful. If what you say is true, most brewing software needs to be rewritten.

 

[Impy]

Citation is definitely needed. I have found some references to the test you speak of which suggests that while it may not be the sugar itself that affects utilisation, the tables and formulae worked out around hop utilisation are still valid (different cause, same effect) and that it affects extract wort as well as AG wort.

Unfortunately I can't acces the BN show currently as my internet speed is moving at one fifth of a bee's dick every half hour but I would love some more info on this - particularly journal articles actually measuring IBU in relation to gravity.

Always happy to have conventional wisdom/fact/etc challenged and while I can't currently use it, a link to the relevant BN show would be useful. If what you say is true, most brewing software needs to be rewritten.

Yeah I'm trying to find the episode. (not having luck obviously)

The take away from what I said it basically, "it doesn't really matter for kit and kilo". Kits, LME and DME have already been boiled, hot and cold break has already been removed so the mechanism that reduces perceived hop bitterness isn't really present.

ALL GRAIN on the other hand, perceived hop bitterness does get effected by high gravity wort, but it's got nothing to do with the concentration of sugar reducing hop utilization. It's just that more particulate and break material is in the liquid and strips out hop bitterness.

The myth is "wort gravity has an inverse relationship to hop utilization and thus perceived bitterness in a finished beer"

The fact is "Hop utilization is constant regardless of wort gravity, however bittering compounds like to stick to particles and precipitate in a wort, the more particles and precipitate the more hop bitterness will get removed before the beer is consumed"

so for basic kit and kilo boil gravity doesnt matter that much? i can boil 1kg of ldme chuck in hops add to fermenter with can?

Yup.

 

[slash22000]

All that being said, it's really not hard to chuck in 100g of dry malt per litre, so might as well be safer than sorrier? :mellow:

 

[NewtownClown]

So, the "break" I witness when boiling DME for a starter is not what I assumed to be hot break?

 

[wyane]

So, the "break" I witness when boiling DME for a starter is not what I assumed to be hot break?

Sounds like that would be the hot break. Not sure what volume you're using for the starter, but for a the volume of a partial boil the break will be more, umm, voluminous.

Have been adding hop pellets to kits & bits brews for about a year. I would suggest boiling in the gravity range suggested. At the start I took general ideas for quantity of hop additions from recipes. After the first batch I halved the hops and after adjusting quantity and boil times over a couple more batches still found the bitterness astringent.
Can't recall if this forum or reading Palmer set me straight. Probably the forum B)

Anyways, boil as great a volume as your burner and chilling system can handle. 5 - 6L is generally mentioned.