Invert Syrup Vs. Belgian Candi

[Swinging Beef]

You should not be putting enough sugar of any kind into any leffe clone that you will make a tasteable difference.
It will all be down to yeast handling.
Just use table sugar or dex.

 

[cpsmusic]

Been doing some more digging and found that for the darker syrups date sugar is used:

Candi Syrup

Maybe it's the combination of diammonium phosphate, and the date sugar that makes the difference - sound reasonable?

The thing that's interesting is that if you search for belgian candi syrup most of the websites (particularly the U.S. ones) say it's just dark invert.

I actually lived in the U.K. for three years and I can't say I ever saw beet sugar (but maybe I just didn't notice it!).

MHB might well be correct - that it's beets that make Euro sucrose special.

But if you've lived in the other hemisphere and bought a pack of sugar ... it's still sucrose. There's SFA difference.

Weird thing is most of the world considers the cane version the superior one. Sugar from beets as second best.

There might be microscopic differences between the two in the levels of molasses n shit left in it, but that's a refinery/cultural difference, not a chemical one.

I read somewhere a while back that confectioners in Europe and America source cane sugar because it caramelises better.

As above, it's the process that's key, not the product.

 

[MHB]

I would be very careful thinking that Date sugar is a common ingredient, reading through the link above is the first time I have seen anyone admit to adding anything other than Beet Sugar.
The supplier my products come from says Contains Beet Sugar on all the four grades (Clear, Amber, Dark and Dark2). Labels on the drums I get are the same except it says Bulk Delivery rather than the small units.
Same applies to DAP; I do not believe that it is widely used in commercially produced Candy Syrup.
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Someone suggested that I might disagree with Nick thats a fairly safe bet as its often the case. In this instance based on my experience there is a very noticeable difference between the flavour in the finished beer when you use genuine Belgian Candy Syrup and a Cane sugar alternative of a similar colour. The exception being with the clear personally I cant tell the difference, so would not spend the extra.
Beet Sugar isnt inferior to Cane sugar, different yes, each sugar has its merits, if I was making sweets or rum I would choose Cane Sugar, but Im not, Im making beer that I want to have taste as much like the Belgian beers I most enjoy as possible, so Im going to use Belgian Malt, Sugar, Yeast and hops as close to those the brewery uses as I can get.
We had a tasting here a while ago, one of the beers was Westvleteren 8, I went and got a bottle of Belgian Dark Syrup off the shelf and stuck my finger in, there is no alternative, it was an exact match to the flavour no it didnt go back on the shelf, the rest of the bottle went into a brew a couple of days later.
Were I brewing a light weight throw down lager or a Leffe clone, then it would be an entirely different matter, more than happy to use plain white sugar, I wouldnt even waste time inverting it.
MHB

 

[manticle]

@MHB: I agree completely that the commercially available D2 syrup* does not compare with homemade stuff of my own experience and if wanting to make a rochefort tribute, I would spend the extra and purchase the syrup (which I have).

I'm interested to know, (if we could discuss this like two beer/brewing enthusiasts, rather than antagonists, even if just for a moment) whether you think it is entirely because it is made from beet rather than cane or because the production process differs greatly from the popularised methods suggested in HB circles.

If I grabbed some beet sugar and used any one of the regularly suggested methods for making candi sugar, could I actually approach the commercial product or is there more to it?

*Only one I've used.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

If I grabbed some beet sugar and used any one of the regularly suggested methods for making candi sugar, could I actually approach the commercial product or is there more to it?

*Only one I've used.

I was going to ask same thing???

Cheers

 

[MHB]

Truth be told, I would be guessing, I know there is a significant difference in the flavour.
To take a stab at an answer, its probably like most things in brewing a combination of factors, the sugar in question and the process. From what I have heard most commercial Candy Syrup is made by Acid Hydrolysis (boiling the bejesus out of sugar, water and some acid) but in this case you might need a 200 year old copper pot of just the right shape to get the exact flavour you are looking for.
Dont know if thats any help.
MHB

 

[manticle]

Don't know if that's any help.
MHB

At the very least, it adds to the idea that brewing is a great combination between science, art, culture and tradition and something undefined.

That d2 sugar syrup is magic. To know how to make it myself would be wonderful. Until then I'll spend the extra cash (and it's pricey but worth it).

 

[Nick JD]

If I grabbed some beet sugar and used any one of the regularly suggested methods for making candi sugar, could I actually approach the commercial product or is there more to it?

That's the point I'm trying to make. If someone says that beet sugar makes commercial belgian dark sugaz tates the way they do, they're dreamin'.

Highly refined beet sugar (and cane sugar) is near enough to pure sucrose.

Now, if it's made from "beet sugar" - a loosely refined raw product packed with refinery byproducts - then our esteemed retailer might have something.

If I make Australian Candi Sugar from Golden Syrup and a bit of molasses ... it's not going to be repeatable using sucrose. Saying something is made from "beet sugar" is like saying something is made from "malt". What kind of malt? How was this malt processed?

Guinness and VB are made from Malt.

 

[Nick JD]

To know how to make it myself would be wonderful.

I'd look into what else they put in there apart from heat.

 

[pk.sax]

An unrefined sugary syrup can be produced directly from sugar beet. This thick, dark syrup is produced by cooking shredded sugar beet for several hours, then pressing the resulting sugar beet mash and concentrating the juice produced until it has the consistency similar to that of honey. No other ingredients are used. In Germany, particularly the Rhineland area, this sugar beet syrup (called Zuckerrben-Sirup in German) is used as a spread for sandwiches, as well as for sweetening sauces, cakes and desserts.

^ wikipedia might have something for us there....

PS: Isn't rhineland right next to Belgium??!!

 

[Muscovy_333]

That's the point I'm trying to make. If someone says that beet sugar makes commercial belgian dark sugaz tates the way they do, they're dreamin'.

Highly refined beet sugar (and cane sugar) is near enough to pure sucrose.

Now, if it's made from "beet sugar" - a loosely refined raw product packed with refinery byproducts - then our esteemed retailer might have something.

If I make Australian Candi Sugar from Golden Syrup and a bit of molasses ... it's not going to be repeatable using sucrose. Saying something is made from "beet sugar" is like saying something is made from "malt". What kind of malt? How was this malt processed?

Guinness and VB are made from Malt.



+1

The Chemisrty for sucrose is the same. The degree of refinement will be the difference. Less refined= more and different flavours. Thats where the secret lies...have fun!