Incremental feeding

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bobbiedigital

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Hi,

After my recent failure of a beer due to high temps I am going to turn my planned kolsch into belgian abbey. I'm going to use the wyeast belgian strong and my recipe is as follows.

1 x coopers canadian blonde
100 g x Munich Malt
200 g x Vienna Malt
100 g x Wheat Malt
500 g x Pilsner malt
100 g x Cookie malt
1 x coopers brew enhancer 2 or 3 (can't remember which I have in the garage)
1 x wyeast strong ale yeast (21 to 27 c)
500g or 1000g of table sugar

I'm going to use the instructions for the coopers abbey blonde (below) with a few changes.

My planned brew day is sunday. With limited time I will buy the ingredients sat morning. I will smack the wyeast and let expand until night. I will create a starter by adding some leftover LDME with some table sugar and leave over night in a sterilized environment. I've read that I should leave the yeast for at least 18-24 hours after smacking it and the starter for 24 hours also. Instead I was thinking I could incrementally add the sugar to FV. The reason being is that the yeast won't have the time to fully get upto propagation levels for the sugar, so would be ok to add a quarter of the sugar to start and then a quarter every 3 days until fully fermented? Or should I split the brew enhancer and sugar into 4 increments to add?

Thanks!


The day before: Line a pot (at least 4 litres) with a mesh cleaning cloth (pulled straight fromt he pack), then add the cracked grain and 2 litres of cold water.

Fit the lid and sit in the fridge for 24 hours.

Remove from the fridge then gather up the corners of the mesh cloth and lift, allowing the liquid to drain from the grain back into the pot.

Transfer the liquid to a good sized pot (around 8 litres) and bring to the boil with a further 2 litres of water and the 500g of Light Dry Malt.

Set the pot in a cold/ice water bath to cool then strain into a fermenting vessel (FV)

Add the Canadian Blonde and Light Malt Extract to the FV, stir to dissolve then top up with cool water to the 20 litre mark and stir thoroughly.

Check the brew temperature and top up to the 23 litre mark with warm or cold water (refridgerated if necessary) to get as close as possible to 21C.

Sprinkle the Abbaye and brew can yeast then fit the lid.
 

manticle

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Yes incremental feeding is a good idea. Wait till FG is nearly complete before you start.
Use 2 packs of the wyeast (or make a really big starter).
Oxyvenate as well as you can.

Pitch at lower temp, allow to rise a bit once a few days into ferment, allowing for fermentation driven heat.

You're better off mashing the pils malt than cold steeping.
 

bobbiedigital

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Yes incremental feeding is a good idea. Wait till FG is nearly complete before you start.
Use 2 packs of the wyeast (or make a really big starter).
Oxyvenate as well as you can.

Pitch at lower temp, allow to rise a bit once a few days into ferment, allowing for fermentation driven heat.

You're better off mashing the pils malt than cold steeping.


Would I be better off Just mashing the entire lot? As I am still practicing my mashing, maybe get the temp upto 65c, let it sit and cool for 10, then steep the grains for 45 minutes? or leave on very low heat just to keep temp up?

Is the incremental schedule ok? Or should I put half sugar to start and half after 6 days?

Thanks!
 

manticle

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Schedule as you have it is fine.
Hot steeping/mashing is a good idea, especially if you are heading more towards full mash eventually. Get grain temp to where you want and then insulate the pot - direct heat will likely overshoot. If you can keep between 60 and 70 for at least 30 mins, you're on the right track. The more specific you can be, the better for later but don't stress.
 

MHB

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What are you planning to do with the malt?
If just a steep in hot water it will be largely wasted as none of the malts (cookie excepted) are pre-converted, if a mini-mash, lets say out of your 1000g of malt you get about 600g
You have a 1.8kg can of Coopers about 80% solids so 1440g
1kg of brew enhancer pretty much all solids call it 95% so 950g
Total solids would be just shy of 3kg (2.99kg)

If you made up the above to 23L - without any of the sugar the OG would be close to 1.050, not exactly strong ale country.
Incremental feeding is usually used to push yeast (alcohol) to its limits (you are about half way), if you added the whole 1kg of sugar at the start the OG would only still be about 1.065.
Meh, you could do the whole incremental feeding thing, call it a practice run for making a beer that needs it, or not, just brew it and I suspect you wont tell the difference.
Mark

PS
For small amounts of malt I find an insulated drinks container works well, heat up about 3-4L of water to around 67-8oC (use a strike water calculator (a metric one))add the malt, leave for 1 hour, pour out into a pot through a strainer lined with an hanky, tea towel, clean rag...
Boil the juice for 15 minutes or more, use this as your hot water to dissolve up the rest of you goo.
Not a bad idea to have 3-5L of water in the fridge, 3-4L of boiling water will probably take the temperature to high, better to stop at around 18L and see how hot the mix is, used chilled water to get the temp right.
 

Lionman

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Definitely mash the grains. It isnt hard. Mashing, especially at this scale, is really just soaking the crushed grain in hot (60-70c) water for an hour or so.

I would consider inverting the sugar too. 1Kg of table sugar will represent a significant amount of the fermentables. Sucrose gives off weird flavours when fermented. Inverting changes the sucrose chemically allowing the yeast to break it down to glucose and fructose before it ferments it resulting in a better flavour.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar/
 

bobbiedigital

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What are you planning to do with the malt?
If just a steep in hot water it will be largely wasted as none of the malts (cookie excepted) are pre-converted, if a mini-mash, lets say out of your 1000g of malt you get about 600g
You have a 1.8kg can of Coopers about 80% solids so 1440g
1kg of brew enhancer pretty much all solids call it 95% so 950g
Total solids would be just shy of 3kg (2.99kg)

If you made up the above to 23L - without any of the sugar the OG would be close to 1.050, not exactly strong ale country.
Incremental feeding is usually used to push yeast (alcohol) to its limits (you are about half way), if you added the whole 1kg of sugar at the start the OG would only still be about 1.065.
Meh, you could do the whole incremental feeding thing, call it a practice run for making a beer that needs it, or not, just brew it and I suspect you wont tell the difference.
Mark

PS
For small amounts of malt I find an insulated drinks container works well, heat up about 3-4L of water to around 67-8oC (use a strike water calculator (a metric one))add the malt, leave for 1 hour, pour out into a pot through a strainer lined with an hanky, tea towel, clean rag...
Boil the juice for 15 minutes or more, use this as your hot water to dissolve up the rest of you goo.
Not a bad idea to have 3-5L of water in the fridge, 3-4L of boiling water will probably take the temperature to high, better to stop at around 18L and see how hot the mix is, used chilled water to get the temp right.

.[/QUOTE]

The coopers recipe
  • 1 x 1.7kg International Series Canadian Blonde
  • 1 x 1.5kg Thomas Coopers Light Malt Extract
  • 1 x 500g Coopers Light Dry Malt
  • 1 x 200g Crystal Malt Grain
gives about (1.7 x0.8) + (1.5 x 0.8) + .5 + .2 = 3.26 kg for 6%.

Ok,I think I have an old tea flask I should be able to use. I can put the malts in there for an hour once the temp is right. Question regarding that, wouldn't the temp reduce once in contact with the malt grains?

When you say boil, at what temp? bubbling boil? or simmer? I thought if you went over 70 the fermentable sugars would break down? This was the problem with my previous batch which resulted in reduced fermentables.

I am making a strong beer because I want my next one to be an amber saison (also from the coopers site) which should hopefully work with the summer temps. I have some left over cans to use so I thought I'd do a practice run (also I can use more practice!).

Pilsner malt isn't that expensive, I could double up? or add dextrose instead of sucrose? I was trying to keep costs down somewhat but a kilo of dextrose is only $3 and my current grain bill is only about $3.96.

I have a brew in the bag, bag. Which I don't use, but I could. I also have a 15L stock pot.

The main reason I wanted to increment feed was to not give the yeast sugar stress and to make up for having only 24 hours to make the yeast starter.
 

bobbiedigital

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Definitely mash the grains. It isnt hard. Mashing, especially at this scale, is really just soaking the crushed grain in hot (60-70c) water for an hour or so.

I would consider inverting the sugar too. 1Kg of table sugar will represent a significant amount of the fermentables. Sucrose gives off weird flavours when fermented. Inverting changes the sucrose chemically allowing the yeast to break it down to glucose and fructose before it ferments it resulting in a better flavour.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar/

Is cane sugar, just raw sugar? Or a particular type that can be bought? Once it's finished simmering and all golden and good like do you then cool it to form hard? If so, the missus will be on that quicker than I'll be able to use it for my brews. :)

I'll give this a go, but I may get a kilo of dextrose just in case.

Thanks!
 

Lionman

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wouldn't the temp reduce once in contact with the malt grains?

This is why you heat the water to what is called 'strike temp' which allows for the cooling effect of the grains. Usually the water is heated to about 70-73 and will cool to 65-68 or so. There are calculators
on line to help with this.

When you say boil, at what temp?

Boil it hard.

I thought if you went over 70 the fermentable sugars would break down?

No, if you go over 78 while the grain is in there, it will kill of the enzymes that convert starches to sugars. You need to remove the grain, then boil. It is a very important part of the process.

I have a brew in the bag, bag. Which I don't use, but I could. I also have a 15L stock pot.

Use these.

The main reason I wanted to increment feed was to not give the yeast sugar stress and to make up for having only 24 hours to make the yeast starter.

I have pitched a single yeast pouch into a 1.5l starter and pitched into 1.065+ OG wort heaps of times and never had an issue. 24 hours is plenty of time for the starter in my opinion. Make sure the starter is well aerated and the temp is right pitch the yeast, when it reaches high krausen I pitch the starter into the fermenter.

Your recipe isn't even very strong, don't worry about it. Do you want it to be stronger?

s cane sugar, just raw sugar?

Just use caster sugar or white sugar.

do you then cool it to form hard?

You can let it harden like toffee or you can add it as syrup.

Personally I wouldnt bother with anything but malt unless you are looking to push the ABV higher. I think the results will be better if you use DME.
 

bobbiedigital

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This is why you heat the water to what is called 'strike temp' which allows for the cooling effect of the grains. Usually the water is heated to about 70-73 and will cool to 65-68 or so. There are calculators
on line to help with this.

Boil it hard.
Will do!

No, if you go over 78 while the grain is in there, it will kill of the enzymes that convert starches to sugars. You need to remove the grain, then boil. It is a very important part of the process.

Use these.

Will practice keeping the temp constant with a dry run first.

Your recipe isn't even very strong, don't worry about it. Do you want it to be stronger?

I'm happy with this as it is this time, ~ 7% will be fine. I will make my next one, a saison, stronger. I will follow the recipe for that as is, add extra grain and extra DME as well. I am procuring some champagne bottles for that one. I have already bought a floor corker on the cheap. Main reason for making it is, well, summer! and I have less chance of stuffing up the temps, so my idea is to use temp appropriate yeasts until I source a cheap fridge and am able to bring it back home (advice from other thread, i'm taking it in :)).

Just use caster sugar or white sugar.

Got heaps of the caster sugar, might use as the increment feed if I get a bit curious.

Personally I wouldnt bother with anything but malt unless you are looking to push the ABV higher. I think the results will be better if you use DME.
[/QUOTE]

I've got a notepad where I am writing down all my recipes, all my methods and subsequent mistakes (and victories). I've used malt for all my other brews except the last where I used a kilo of DME and half a kilo of brown sugar in a brown ale. It's been conditioning for two weeks now. It's now the turn to use table sugar to see what affect it will have.
 

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