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I'm just starting to get into water HP

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Bogan333

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Just one step at a time for me when it comes to cemetery.
Yes I faulted in High School, now I wish I had paid more attention in School.


The Bottled water that I'm using is HP 5.1

I'm making a Australian Pale ALE and Beer smith is saying the water needs to be HP 8

How much calcium carbonate do I add to 23.15L and 19.34L ?

I have tryed looking for it on the net but no luck.
 

manticle

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pH not HP.

I'm surprised beersmith suggests your water should be pH 8 and I think you're reading it wrong. I wouldn't add any Calcium Carbonate for aussie pale and it is the pH of the mash that is important rather than the water.

Also need to know what is in the water you are using.
 

manticle

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Have you measured your mash pH with a similar grain bill? What pH are you aiming for with this and how far off would you be if you added nothing?

The other minerals in the bottled water are also important as they can affect pH and flavour so a mineral profile for the water would be good.

Step 1: Find out the sulphate, calcium, chloride, and zinc concentrations of your water. Sodium and magnesium can be ignored as long as they are not too high. Also find the pH (you have already) and the carbonate content/alkalinity (often expressed as CaCO3).

Step 2: Work out your mash pH, either by measuring or by plugging into a calculator such as EZ water calculator. Measure the pH of your actual mash to see how close the calculator comes..

Step 3: Drop out any unwanted products from your water such as excess chlorine, chloramine or carbonate. Depending on what the excess product is, you may be able to do this simply by preboiling or by using an activated carbon filter. Otherwise you may need Reverse Osmosis filter or to cut town water with bottled/spring water (or get a water tank and get the profile analysed from time to time).

Step 4: Get your calcium levels to at least 50 ppm (or mg per Litre). Get your sulphate and choride where you want it for the beer you are making (sulphate pushes hop profile, chloride pushes malt profile). Too much can be worse than none, avoid sulphate in dark beers.

Step 5: Taking into account your grain bill, water mineral content, volume of mash water and any calcium salt additions, calculate mash pH at room temperature. Aim for pH 5.2-5.8 at 20 degrees. Hotter will read lower.

Step 6: If your pH is too high with all the above accounted for, add some food grade acid - phosphoric or lactic are available from most good AG HB outlets. Calculate how much with the water calc and again measure the actual mash to see how close it is.

Step 7: Add some extra salts or acid to your sparge water if the pH is high. Otherwise add some extra salts to the kettle for flavour.

Step 8: Add some yeast nutrient (proper stuff) to the boil or zinc chloride to get your zinc levels up. Factor the chloride in to total Cl- levels if using zinc chloride - yeast nutrient is easier.

That's as basic as I can make it and doesn't include the reasoning behind anything. Haven't touched on raising pH with dark beers but you're looking at pale so that hopefully is a start.
 

Bogan333

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This is what I'm aiming for
ph 8, Calcium 295.00ppm Magnesium 45.00ppm Sodium 55.00ppm Suifate 725.00ppm Chloride 25.00ppm Bicarbonate 300.00pp,


I may have to email Penguin water Co to get the their reading
 

manticle

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Why pH 8? That doesn't make any sense.

is that mash or water (either is strange but for mash it's way crazy)

Where is this profile from?

Gryphon Brewing is based in WA and is knowledgeable about water Chem. I'd suggest sending him your recipe and letting him work out the water/mash adjustments for you.
 

Bogan333

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manticle said:
Have you measured your mash pH with a similar grain bill? What pH are you aiming for with this and how far off would you be if you added nothing?

The other minerals in the bottled water are also important as they can affect pH and flavour so a mineral profile for the water would be good.

Step 1: Find out the sulphate, calcium, chloride, and zinc concentrations of your water. Sodium and magnesium can be ignored as long as they are not too high. Also find the pH (you have already) and the carbonate content/alkalinity (often expressed as CaCO3).

Step 2: Work out your mash pH, either by measuring or by plugging into a calculator such as EZ water calculator. Measure the pH of your actual mash to see how close the calculator comes..

Step 3: Drop out any unwanted products from your water such as excess chlorine, chloramine or carbonate. Depending on what the excess product is, you may be able to do this simply by preboiling or by using an activated carbon filter. Otherwise you may need Reverse Osmosis filter or to cut town water with bottled/spring water (or get a water tank and get the profile analysed from time to time).

Step 4: Get your calcium levels to at least 50 ppm (or mg per Litre). Get your sulphate and choride where you want it for the beer you are making (sulphate pushes hop profile, chloride pushes malt profile). Too much can be worse than none, avoid sulphate in dark beers.

Step 5: Taking into account your grain bill, water mineral content, volume of mash water and any calcium salt additions and calculate mash pH at room temperature. Aim for pH 5.2-5.8 at 20 degrees. Hotter will read lower.

Step 6: If your pH is too high with all the above accounted for, add some food grade acid - phosphoric or lactic are available from most good AG HB outlets. Calculate how much with the water calc and again measure the actual mash to see how close it is.

Step 7: Add some extra salts or acid to your sparge water if the pH is high. Otherwise add some extra salts to the kettle for flavour.

Step 8: Add some yeast nutrient (proper stuff) to the boil or zinc chloride to get your zinc levels up.

That's as basic as I can make it and doesn't include the reasoning behind anything. Haven't touched on raising pH with dark beers but you're looking at pale so that hopefully is a start.
Thanks mate a lot of it went over the top of my head, but that give me something to read up on, I will wait for the email from Penguin water Co and work from there, plus pay a vist to Gryphon.
 

manticle

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Simpler version is :

1. Make your water soft (or use soft water). Add important minerals for flavour (calcium, sulphate), yeast health (calcium, zinc), enzyme efficiency (calcium) and pH (calcium).


2. Get mash pH right with grist, water, minerals and acid.

3. Add flavour salts.
 

Bogan333

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manticle said:
Why pH 8? That doesn't make any sense.

is that mash or water (either is strange but for mash it's way crazy)

Where is this profile from?

Gryphon Brewing is based in WA and is knowledgeable about water Chem. I'd suggest sending him your recipe and letting him work out the water/mash adjustments for you.
in Beer Smith it's saying Mash ph 8.0 and spage runoff 6.9 and that's when I entered the Style guide comparison under Style Australian Pale Ale
 

manticle

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Something's not right if it's saying you want mash pH 8.

Is that what it says the mash pH will be or what your target should be?
 

Bogan333

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manticle said:
Something's not right if it's saying you want mash pH 8.

Is that what it says the mash pH will be or what your target should be?
In Mash Tap

Under Mash ph and Runnings

Mash ph 8.0 ph
Sparge runoff ph 6.9 ph
End of Running Gravity 1.010 SG

This is the first time i started to take notes on ph levels
And first time I using Beer Smith in the past I just use brewmate

I'm trying to improve my beer and water ph was the next step
 

manticle

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I don't use beersmith or brewmate so I can't help in that regard but I do know that mash pH 8 is ridiculously high for any beer so something is either not clicked right, not set right or just not right.

You want around 5.4 for your mash pH. pH 8 is 1000 times more alkaline than pH5
 

Bogan333

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manticle said:
I don't use beersmith or brewmate so I can't help in that regard but I do know that mash pH 8 is ridiculously high for any beer so something is either not clicked right, not set right or just not right.

You want around 5.4 for your mash pH. pH 8 is 1000 times more alkaline than pH5
Penguin water ph is 5.1 so just leave it as it is?
 

manticle

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Water pH is much less relevant than mash pH and mash pH is dependent on far more than just water.

However I would be leaving the water alone sooner than I would be adding anything to get it to pH 8.

If you're going to play around with water adjustment, you will need to read more and understand a few fundamentals. As suggested - talk to Nev/Gryphon. face to face with him will make more sense of it to you than I will on the internet.
 

Bogan333

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manticle said:
Water pH is much less relevant than mash pH and mash pH is dependent on far more than just water.

However I would be leaving the water alone sooner than I would be adding anything to get it to pH 8.

If you're going to play around with water adjustment, you will need to read more and understand a few fundamentals. As suggested - talk to Nev/Gryphon. face to face with him will make more sense of it to you than I will on the internet.
Thanks for your help Mate
 

manticle

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No worries.

Water chem fucked with my head for a long time. I reckon I have a handle on it now but there's so many ins and outs, so many buts, whys and maybes that I still keep learning and still keep doubting what I think I know.

Work out the basics and try them out on a brew and let your palate be the teacher. What makes a difference to the final product? Learn that and tweak from there.
 

peas_and_corn

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I cannot mash that
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Malt contributes amino acids to your wort, so it makes no sense that your pH would go up when you mash in. What's your method of measuring pH?
 

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